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OBD II Data for HVB

OBD II HVB

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312 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 05:54 AM


The power applied to the HVB during charging was 3.00 kW.  The charger was consuming 3.4 kW.  So 400 watts was being used for something other than charging?  A total of 5.62 kWh of electricity was supplied to the HVB.  Something doesn't add up.  The SOC increased by 97.18% - 17.354 = 79.826%.  If the capacity of the HVB is 7.6 kWh, then the added energy was 7.6 * 79.826% = 6.066 kWh.  It was only supplied 5.62 kWh.  I will have to investigate further. 

 

 

 

I'm going to guess that because the HVB temperature is only 23 F, it can no longer provide 7.6 kWh of energy.  That might explain the discrepancy.  The EV range is currently 16 miles, far less than the normal 25 miles in summer. 


Edited by larryh, 24 January 2014 - 05:55 AM.

199291.png

 

 

Tracking MPGe--not MPG.









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#22 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 04:44 PM

The car consumes about 3.425 kW of electricity when charging.  The fans and electronics in the car typically use about 70 watts of power.  So that means 355 watts are lost by another process.  I would assume that the charger uses a rectifier to convert AC to DC.  Is 3000/3355 = 89.5% a typical efficiency for a rectifier?

 

I also assume that there is a loss of power for the reverse process using an inverter to convert DC to AC.  When computing the 82% efficiency ratio, where 82% of the power that comes from the wall outlet using a 240 V charger is actually used to propel the vehicle, that ratio must take into account not only the charging/discharging efficiency of the battery, but the rectifier and inverter efficiencies as well.  So if the overall efficiency is 82%, and 89.5% efficiency for the rectifier alone is correct, then the rectifier would be one of the biggest sources of losses.  Or is the plug-in energy reported by the car measured before the inverter, so the 82% ratio does not include the inverter efficiency?  In that case, 82% of the electricity from the wall outlet does not actually make it to the wheels and the true efficiency is lower than 82%.


Edited by larryh, 24 January 2014 - 05:01 PM.

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Tracking MPGe--not MPG.


#23 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 09:19 AM

This diagram shows the performance of the Electric Heater when the ambient temperature is 3 F.  The car is plugged into the 120 V charger and turned on in EV Now mode for 13 minutes.  Climate control is on.  So basically, only the electric heater for climate control is consuming power.  The HVB temperature rises from 12.2 F to 15.8 F.  The HVB SOC falls from 97.7% to 83.9%.  The interior temperature rises from 6.8 F to 42.8 F.  I think the electric heater needs help from the ICE to warm up the car.  The heating element consumes 4.8 kW of power from the HVB as reported by the OBD II scanner.  However, the left display says the heater is consuming 5+ kW of power.   The remaining power must be supplied by the 120 V charger plugged into the car. 

 

gallery_187_17_43066.jpg


Edited by larryh, 26 January 2014 - 01:33 AM.

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#24 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 03:08 PM

The following graph is for an 8 mile trip I made this afternoon which involves a couple of relatively steep 15% grades.  The outside temperature was 3 F.   You can see regenerative braking occurring at about 1:37, 1:44, and 1:48 for stop lights (the purple line shows negative power, i.e. power being applied to the HVB).  The electric heater was on most of the time consuming about 5 kW of power.  You can see that when the speed is 0, i.e. at time 1:44.  I used hill assist from about 1:42 to 1:44 going down a steep hill.  You can see the temperature for both the motor and generator inverters rising.  Hill assist must be using both the generator and the motor for regen.  When I applied the brakes at the bottom of the hill, the motor inverter temperature spikes.  The motor is doing the regenerative braking.

 

At about 1:45, I began accelerating up a steep hill.  You can see the HVB temperature rising relatively quickly while the HVB provides up to 45 kW of power.  The generator inverter temperature also rises rapidly while going up the hill.  This suggests the ICE is running the generator to power the motor.  Finally, as expected, the motor inverter temperature rises rapidly as the electric motor is doing most of the work to get up the hill.  The ICE was doing about 1/4 the work of the electric motor on the Engage display. 

 

The ICE came on four times.  All the time it was on, it ran at a steady 1500 rpm.  In addition, the load on the engine was generally around 65%.  This must be its favored operating point.  Even when accelerating up the hill, the ICE still ran at 1500 rpm and 65% load.  The HVB provided the power to the electric motor to make up the difference.  Only on the return trip, after the HVB was depleted, I see the rpms and load on the ICE vary. 

 

I general, the generator inverter temperature rises when the ICE is running.  This implies the ICE is running the generator.  It also rises during Hill Assist, so the generator is used for regen in Hill Assist also. The motor inverter temperature rises during acceleration, braking and Hill Assist.  The motor is used to propel the vehicle and to provide regenerative braking and regen in Hill Assist. 
 

gallery_187_17_86879.jpg


Edited by larryh, 26 January 2014 - 03:05 AM.

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Tracking MPGe--not MPG.


#25 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 04:38 PM

I wonder how the car maintains constant load and rpms on the ICE regardless of the speed and power demands that I place on the car.  Can it adjust the transmission almost instantaneously to changes in power and speed to maintain a constant ICE operating point of 1500 rpm and 65% load?  Or rather than directly providing torque to the wheels, is it simply running the generator at that constant speed and load to provide a fixed amount of power for the electric motor to propel the vehicle.  The remaining power required comes from the HVB. 


Edited by larryh, 25 January 2014 - 04:40 PM.

199291.png

 

 

Tracking MPGe--not MPG.


#26 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 26 January 2014 - 03:06 AM

I wonder how the car maintains constant load and rpms on the ICE regardless of the speed and power demands that I place on the car.  Can it adjust the transmission almost instantaneously to changes in power and speed to maintain a constant ICE operating point of 1500 rpm and 65% load?  Or rather than directly providing torque to the wheels, is it simply running the generator at that constant speed and load to provide a fixed amount of power for the electric motor to propel the vehicle.  The remaining power required comes from the HVB. 

I updated post #24 above in an attempt to answer these questions.  I add the motor and generator inverter temperatures to the plot.


Edited by larryh, 26 January 2014 - 03:07 AM.

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Tracking MPGe--not MPG.


#27 OFFLINE   Hybridbear

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 07:33 AM

I'm going to guess that because the HVB temperature is only 23 F, it can no longer provide 7.6 kWh of energy.  That might explain the discrepancy.  The EV range is currently 16 miles, far less than the normal 25 miles in summer. 

The FFH limits use of the HVB when it's very cold. It also takes more kW out of the battery to get the same amount of kinetic energy from a moving vehicle. I drove a short trip in my parents' C-Max Energi on Saturday which in temperate weather would get 150+ MPGe. On Saturday I had preconditioned the car so it was moderately warm when I got in and I didn't use the electric heat at all, only heated seats. The HVB temp was less than 15F at the start of my trip. The trips on Saturday returned less than 110 MPGe. The HVB is definitely less efficient when cold. I'm curious if the Energi also uses the fans to move warm cabin air over the battery when it is cold in the winter like the hybrid does.

When the HVB is extremely cold your EV power is limited. While the dealer fixed the trunk on our new white FFH today they gave me our old black FFH to drive. The HVB temp when I left the dealer was 4.5 F according to the ScanGauge. The HVB would not run the car in EV mode at all. Any touch of the gas pedal would make the ICE come on. I didn't think to get a pic showing the 0 threshold. Once the HVB warmed up above 15F I was able to get 1/2 bar of EV as shown in the pic below. Once the HVB hit 20F I was able to get 1 bar of EV. I did not get normal EV operation back until the HVB was warmer than 32F. The HVB fans came on right away and ran non-stop to funnel heated cabin air across the HVB.

BDD2FB03-5014-443E-8196-DA4861E7DDE7_zps

http://fordfusionhyb...ngauge/?p=74042

 

I wonder how the car maintains constant load and rpms on the ICE regardless of the speed and power demands that I place on the car.  Can it adjust the transmission almost instantaneously to changes in power and speed to maintain a constant ICE operating point of 1500 rpm and 65% load?  Or rather than directly providing torque to the wheels, is it simply running the generator at that constant speed and load to provide a fixed amount of power for the electric motor to propel the vehicle.  The remaining power required comes from the HVB. 

The hybrid never does this. The C-Max Energi also acts this way. This is much less efficient that running under a high load. This is part of why the Energi is less efficient in "hybrid" mode than the hybrid. The FFH rarely runs the ICE without using it to spin the generator and charge the HVB. A 100% score on the acceleration coach bar requires you to accelerate the first little bit in EV and then kick the ICE on and accelerate at 2 bars or so. At this level of acceleration the ICE runs at about 40 HP and 90+ LOD. If you slightly depress the pedal more, the ICE will not increase the LOD or HP, but will just charge the HVB less. If you slightly back off on the pedal, the ICE will charge the HVB more, up to ~20 amps @ ~300 volts (~6 kW) flowing into the battery. Regen braking seems to peak at ~50 amps @ ~300 volts (~15 kW) flowing into the HVB. The ICE will not charge the HVB from the generator faster than ~20 amps, but will begin to reduce the output of the ICE. The "favorite" charge rate of the ICE seems to be ~15-16 amps (~4.5-4.8 kW) flowing into the HVB. Between 36-42 HP the ICE LOD is consistently 90+. This is also the HP range in which the computer likes to operate the ICE. Your BSFC will be higher at 1500 RPM & 65 LOD than at ~2000-2300 RPM (36-42 HP) & 90+ LOD. A C-Max Hybrid owner has found that 2000 RPM seems to be a really efficient RPM for the ICE in these cars.

 

The Energi likes to use the electricity in the HVB even if you're in "EV Later". It doesn't like to use the ICE to charge the HVB until the HVB is depleted, then it runs very similar to the FFH & C-Max Hybrid, using the ICE to charge the HVB and then running in EV for brief stretches to discharge the HVB. In driving my parents' C-Max on a few longer trips, I found that it is more efficient running in "hybrid" mode with the HVB depleted than it is running in "hybrid" mode by pushing EV Later.


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#28 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 04:12 PM

The Energi also limits HVB power when its cold.  This afternoon, after sitting outside in the cold (it only got up to -6 F today), the HVB temperature was 9 F.  The Empower display showed the ICE turn on threshold to be 25 kW.  It is normally 40 kW.  I'm not sure what units each tick mark corresponds to in the FFH, but 25 kW is 2.5 bars on the Energi.  The HVB can't generate as much power when the battery is cold.  I don't think the MPGe will vary based on the HVB temperature.  The reason you get low MPGe when it is cold, is because it takes 30% more energy to propel the car.  The rolling resistance of the tires increases significantly, air density is much higher, and the viscosity of the fluids increase causing more friction.  See http://www.fordfusio...ations/?p=10616.


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#29 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 05:55 PM

I believe that the purpose of running the ICE at a constant 1500 rpm is to solely to warm up the engine.  The car's primary goal is to still run in EV mode.  However, it has to run the ICE intermittently to keep the engine warm.  It will run the ICE even if the car is not moving until the coolant heats up to around 110 F.  If the ICE has the opportunity to supply some of its power to the generator to provide electricity to the electric motor, then so much the better for efficiency.   The electric motor is probably around 95% efficient in powering the car using electricity.   The ICE is more efficient at higher loads and lower RPMs.  So running the generator and placing a load on the ICE allows the ICE to run more efficiently and the electricity generated is then used efficiently to power the car.  It obviously takes more gas, but it generates more power which can be utilized effectively for each quantity of gas consumed up to loads of 65% from the previous graphs.  It probably would be better to apply the ICE's power directly to the wheels, but then the car would not have as much control over the RPMs and load placed on the ICE and it would most likely use far more gas than if it only opportunistically runs the generator, contrary to the car's primary goal of trying to run in EV mode and use minimal gas. 

 

If you stop at a stop light or decelerate resulting in regen, the load on the ICE is reduced.  It does not appear run the generator to charge the battery, probably because the battery is so cold, it takes too much energy to charge the battery for the extra gas that needs to be consumed to generate that electricity. 

 

This morning, my 8 mile commute to work at -15 F took 0.05 gallons of gas (with preconditioning of the car).  The 8 mile commute home (car sat out in the cold) at -6 F consumed 0.13 gallons of gas.  Few cars can match that.  Note that the Energi supplies far more than 50 amps of current to the HVB during regenerative braking, up to about 2.5 times that amount. 


Edited by larryh, 28 January 2014 - 01:56 AM.

199291.png

 

 

Tracking MPGe--not MPG.


#30 OFFLINE   Hybridbear

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 07:36 AM

The Energi also limits HVB power when its cold.  This afternoon, after sitting outside in the cold (it only got up to -6 F today), the HVB temperature was 9 F.  The Empower display showed the ICE turn on threshold to be 25 kW.  It is normally 40 kW.  I'm not sure what units each tick mark corresponds to in the FFH, but 25 kW is 2.5 bars on the Energi.  The HVB can't generate as much power when the battery is cold.  I don't think the MPGe will vary based on the HVB temperature.  The reason you get low MPGe when it is cold, is because it takes 30% more energy to propel the car.  The rolling resistance of the tires increases significantly, air density is much higher, and the viscosity of the fluids increase causing more friction.  See http://www.fordfusio...ations/?p=10616.

The tick marks should represent about the same power demand in the hybrid as well. Interesting to see how the Energi limits the battery use as well.

 

I believe that the purpose of running the ICE at a constant 1500 rpm is to solely to warm up the engine.  The car's primary goal is to still run in EV mode.  However, it has to run the ICE intermittently to keep the engine warm.  It will run the ICE even if the car is not moving until the coolant heats up to around 110 F.  If the ICE has the opportunity to supply some of its power to the generator to provide electricity to the electric motor, then so much the better for efficiency.   The electric motor is probably around 95% efficient in powering the car using electricity.   The ICE is more efficient at higher loads and lower RPMs.  So running the generator and placing a load on the ICE allows the ICE to run more efficiently and the electricity generated is then used efficiently to power the car.  It obviously takes more gas, but it generates more power which can be utilized effectively for each quantity of gas consumed up to loads of 65% from the previous graphs.  It probably would be better to apply the ICE's power directly to the wheels, but then the car would not have as much control over the RPMs and load placed on the ICE and it would most likely use far more gas than if it only opportunistically runs the generator, contrary to the car's primary goal of trying to run in EV mode and use minimal gas. 

 

If you stop at a stop light or decelerate resulting in regen, the load on the ICE is reduced.  It does not appear run the generator to charge the battery, probably because the battery is so cold, it takes too much energy to charge the battery for the extra gas that needs to be consumed to generate that electricity. 

 

This morning, my 8 mile commute to work at -15 F took 0.05 gallons of gas (with preconditioning of the car).  The 8 mile commute home (car sat out in the cold) at -6 F consumed 0.13 gallons of gas.  Few cars can match that.  Note that the Energi supplies far more than 50 amps of current to the HVB during regenerative braking, up to about 2.5 times that amount. 

You're correct that it runs the ICE at that low RPM for warm up. It's also for emissions reasons. EPA tests for emissions lead manufacturers to do things that lead to less real world fuel economy but better EPA emissions scores.

 

What peak current from regen braking have you seen in the Energi? I've seen it do more than 50 amps, but it's hard to watch the ScanGauge & the road when driving. The higher your speed when braking the higher the amps going into the HVB because there's more potential energy. I've seen the Prius hit 80 amps going into the HVB but the Prius pack is less volts (~220) so 80 amps in it isn't as many kW as 80 amps in the FFH or FFE. The Energi pack is also higher voltage than the FFH pack so it will have lower amps for the same kW.


Current vehicles

2013 Ford Fusion Energi Titanium - White Platinum Metallic (The Snow Queen on MFM)

2013 Ford Focus Electric - Ice Storm (Elektra on MFM)

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Previous vehicles

2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE x2

252543.png167422.png


#31 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 04:21 PM

The HVB voltage is around 340 volts when fully charged.  The maximum current I have observed for regenerative braking so far is 115 amps.  I'm not sure what it would be if the HVB were at its peak operating temperature rather than in the 40s.  Also, I am not exactly sure what the units are on the tick marks for the different displays.  But I think they are generally around 10 kW.  I received a reply from Ashley regarding them here:  http://www.fordfusio...splays/?p=10959.


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#32 OFFLINE   Hybridbear

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 08:03 AM

The HVB voltage is around 340 volts when fully charged.  The maximum current I have observed for regenerative braking so far is 115 amps.  I'm not sure what it would be if the HVB were at its peak operating temperature rather than in the 40s.  Also, I am not exactly sure what the units are on the tick marks for the different displays.  But I think they are generally around 10 kW.  I received a reply from Ashley regarding them here:  http://www.fordfusio...splays/?p=10959.

According to the ScanGauge, accelerating at 2 bars on Empower is 41HP, 1 bar is 20 HP (with a varying amount of amps going back into the battery). This means that each tick is about 15 kW. In EV mode, 1 bar acceleration is 22-23 amps @ 290 volts or 6.38-6.67 kW.


Current vehicles

2013 Ford Fusion Energi Titanium - White Platinum Metallic (The Snow Queen on MFM)

2013 Ford Focus Electric - Ice Storm (Elektra on MFM)

315692.png

 

Previous vehicles

2013 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE x2

252543.png167422.png


#33 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 02:37 PM

The following graph is for same 8 mile trip as in post 24 above.  I have added torque from the ICE to the plot.  I am guessing that this shows the amount of force applied directly to the wheels from the ICE.  It drops to zero when the ICE is off, and during braking and coasting.  It spikes during acceleration. 

 

When the ICE is on, the ICE maintains a constant 1500 rpm and a relatively constant load of around 65% (except when stopped, braking, or coasting).  While doing that, you can see spikes in the torque applied to the wheels by the ICE.  So it appears to be doing a balancing act in the positive split propulsion mode of operation, where power from the ICE is split between the direct path to the road and the path through the generator, to maintain constant rpm and load.

 

gallery_187_17_199094.jpg


Edited by larryh, 29 January 2014 - 02:57 PM.

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#34 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 02:11 PM

The Energi likes to use the electricity in the HVB even if you're in "EV Later". It doesn't like to use the ICE to charge the HVB until the HVB is depleted, then it runs very similar to the FFH & C-Max Hybrid, using the ICE to charge the HVB and then running in EV for brief stretches to discharge the HVB. In driving my parents' C-Max on a few longer trips, I found that it is more efficient running in "hybrid" mode with the HVB depleted than it is running in "hybrid" mode by pushing EV Later.

When running in EV Later mode today on the Freeway at a constant 65 mph, I observed the ICE rpm to be constant at 2075 rpm with a constant 68% load.  The SOC of the HVB remained constant.  There was very little charging or discharging of the HVB.  This was for 10 miles at about 3 F.   There were no EV miles for this section of the trip.  So it was purely the ICE powering the car during this interval--no plug-in energy was used.  The MPG was 37.   I think this behavior is different in the summer time, i.e. the SOC of the HVB varies, there are EV miles, and the mileage would be about 44 MPGe.  I will have see what happens after the HVB is depleted. 


Edited by larryh, 01 February 2014 - 01:44 PM.

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Tracking MPGe--not MPG.


#35 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 02:09 PM

The following shows the Engine Map computed from the OBD II data for the 60 mile commute at 3 F in the previous post #34.  I used ICE RPM, % Load, and Fuel Consumption (gallons/minute) data during the trip to compute the chart.  The chart is a crude approximation.  I don't have enough data to make an accurate map and the data is not all that reliable.  For instance, the values of RPM, Load, and fuel consumption are, in general, not synchronized.  They are computed at different times.  So if I am using data from a time when the ICE is changing RPMs or Load is changing, then the data is suspect.  Along the x axis is ICE RPM from 1750 RPM to 2450 RPM.  Along the y axis is % Load on the ICE from 65% to 85%.  I suspect this is relative load so the chart is distorted.  The maximum torque that can be produced by the ICE varies with RPM.   This chart assumes it does not vary with RPM.  I am using % Load as a proxy for torque. 

 

I simply computed efficiency as RPM * Load / fuel consumption.  RPM * Load is proportional to power.  So the higher the efficiency, the more power the ICE is generating per quantity of fuel consumption.  The car was operating at a constant 2075 rpm and a constant 67.7% load when going 65 mph.  This is indicated by the black circle on the map.  The car did not appear to be running the generator, so there was no additional load on the ICE other than for propelling the car.  In order to provide sufficient power to 65 mph, the ICE has to operate somewhere on the black line. 

 

It looks to me like it is selected a good efficient operating point.  If the RPMs were much lower, then efficiency would decrease, i.e. deeper into the purple colored region or one of the other less efficient colored regions (green, red, or darker blue).  Faster RPMs may look more efficient on this chart, but the chart is not all that accurate, so I cannot conclude that it would actually be more accurate to operate at higher RPMs.  Adding additional load to the ICE would decrease efficiency (the operating point would move up along the y-axis further into the purple, green, red, or darker blue regions), so that could explain why the ICE is not charging the HVB battery.  So I suspect the car is doing what it is supposed to do and run the ICE at its most efficient operating point for the power required. 

 

gallery_187_17_4258.png


Edited by larryh, 01 February 2014 - 02:14 PM.

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#36 OFFLINE   larryh

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Posted 02 February 2014 - 05:16 PM

The following chart shows the maximum power output from the HVB (Maximum Discharge Power Limit) vs. HVB Temperature.  The HVB appears to be able to provide a maximum output of 35 kW at 30 F and above.  When the HVB temperature is below 0 F, it can't provide much power (probably less than 6 kW).  So if the HVB gets too cold, the ICE is going to have to run to provide the power.

 

gallery_187_17_10900.png


Edited by larryh, 02 February 2014 - 05:21 PM.

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#37 OFFLINE   tseibel76

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Posted 03 February 2014 - 10:14 AM

Great info larryh!  This substantiates our earlier observations that a major factor in when the ICE fires is how long the car has been sitting out in the cold.  The longer it sits out, the colder the HVB gets, thus limiting how much power it can provide.  I have noticed a substantial jump in range once you get above 32F.  I try and park in the sun at work as much as possible to keep the HVB warm.  I don't know if it helps or not, but it seems to.



#38 OFFLINE   larryh

larryh

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 02:50 AM

They should provide a battery heater to warm up the HVB while preconditioning the car.   In lieu of that, the Sun works well.


Edited by larryh, 04 February 2014 - 02:51 AM.

199291.png

 

 

Tracking MPGe--not MPG.


#39 OFFLINE   tseibel76

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 04:38 AM

A battery heater would be nice.  It's funny they wouldn't have incorporated something into the car given the preconditioning capabilities.  Especially since HVB temp seems to have such a large impact on how often the ICE must come on.



#40 OFFLINE   larryh

larryh

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Posted 07 February 2014 - 09:30 AM

When running in EV Later mode today on the Freeway at a constant 65 mph, I observed the ICE rpm to be constant at 2075 rpm with a constant 68% load.  The SOC of the HVB remained constant.  There was very little charging or discharging of the HVB.  This was for 10 miles at about 3 F.   There were no EV miles for this section of the trip.  So it was purely the ICE powering the car during this interval--no plug-in energy was used.  The MPG was 37.   I think this behavior is different in the summer time, i.e. the SOC of the HVB varies, there are EV miles, and the mileage would be about 44 MPGe.  I will have see what happens after the HVB is depleted. 

Today, driving in hybrid mode on the freeway at a constant 65 mph, I observed the ICE rpm to be a constant 2090 rpm with a constant 69% load.  Again, the SOC of the HVB remained constant and there was very little charging or discharging of the HVB.  The temperature was -3 F.  So it appears to behave the same in EV Later mode as it does in hybrid mode (when the HVB is depleted).  The car was powered entirely by the ICE.  The MPG on the freeway was 39.5. 


Edited by larryh, 07 February 2014 - 09:31 AM.

199291.png

 

 

Tracking MPGe--not MPG.










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