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murphy
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My pipe dream IS still a Tesla. :)  Too bad Michigan doesn't allow them to sell here anymore.  :rant:

You can go online to the Tesla website and order a Tesla and there is nothing MI, or any other state, can do about it.

Service might be a problem if the nearest service center is a long way off in another state.

 

If you want an experience similar to driving a Tesla, drive your Energi in EV Only mode with the gear shift in L.  Regenerative brakeing in a Tesla is not on the brake pedal.  It's on the accelerator pedal.  Foot off of the accelerator pedal is maximum regen.  The only difference is the Energi does not turn the brake lights on when it is decelerating in L.  The Tesla uses an accelerometer to control the brake lights.

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They passed laws that prevent there being Tesla stores or service centers in the state. These are states where the NADA (National Automobile Dealers Association) has legislators in their pocket. A Tesla is not purchased at a Tesla store.  It is purchased online at their website.  It is possible to place the order at a Tesla store but it is done sitting at one of their computers and doing the same thing that you would do at home.  The only advantage to doing it at a store is that there is someone sitting beside you that can answer any questions that you have.

 

No one (except maybe your wife) can prevent you from purchasing a Tesla if you want one and can afford it.  It's no different than ordering something from Amazon.

 

This is way off topic.  I wonder if I can split these last three posts off and move to a new thread in the appropriate place.

 

These posts have now been split off to a separate thread under competing products.

Edited by murphy
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That's interesting that a state can pass a law to prevent a retail store from opening within a state.  I guess Free Enterprise is subjective.

 

And you are correct - apparently that bill does not actually prevent the sale of a Tesla to a Michigan resident.  OK, great... so... how does this law actually do anything besides rob themselves of property tax/rental fees, etc?  A brick and mortar store consumes resources, demands fees for rent and/or taxes, etc.  Yeah, it avoids franchise fees by doing direct sales, but it sounds to me like this law does nothing except shoot themselves in the foot.  Besides, what dealership is going to order and sell these cars?  Some have found it difficult enough just to find the friggin Energi at a Ford dealership, and when they do, have a salesperson try to talk them out of it.  Sheesh.

 

As far as a service center goes, I don't think Tesla has one of those either - all of their trained mechanics travel TO the car, rather than bringing it in.

 

I suppose it is nice to sit next to someone to answer questions, but you can call them to have those questions answered, can't you?  I suppose the most difficult thing would be is to order a test drive.  However, that hasn't stopped many people here on the forum from traveling to a distant car and buying it over there to drive home.

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The original intent was to prevent auto manufacturers from opening a store and directly competing with their dealers.

 

Tesla has no dealers so the laws didn't apply to them. 

 

NADA is trying to close this "loop hole" by getting states to pass a law that specifically prohibits Tesla from opening company stores in the guise of protecting the public.

 

How do I get a law passed to protect me from the dealers who intend to empty my wallet?

Edited by murphy
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Actually you can control the regen rate on the Tesla... it's a setting available on the touch screen or it was on the P85 I test drove.  :-D

True but I can't imagine why I would want less regen (I don't leave the house when there is ice on the roads).  I drive my Energi in L so that when I take my foot off of the accelerator and head for the brake the regen has started before I get there.

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True but I can't imagine why I would want less regen (I don't leave the house when there is ice on the roads).  I drive my Energi in L so that when I take my foot off of the accelerator and head for the brake the regen has started before I get there.

I think most folks who hypermile say that it is best not to use L in general. It slows down the car, and you will never get enough energy back to replace the kenetic energy that you used getting up to speed. The mechanical energy loss is to blame - there is always some of that.

 

The "real" hypermilers even use pulse and glide, with the glide part in neutral - no regen at all. This achieves the absolute maximum mileage. Of course that is illegal here in CA.

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I don't hypermile.  The car is a tool to get me from place to place.  Tracking mileage is nice but I long ago stopped trying to get high numbers.  I like the fact that if I need to make an emergency stop the deceleration will start the instant I remove my foot from the accelerator and be in effect before I get to the brake pedal.

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I don't hypermile.  The car is a tool to get me from place to place.  Tracking mileage is nice but I long ago stopped trying to get high numbers.  I like the fact that if I need to make an emergency stop the deceleration will start the instant I remove my foot from the accelerator and be in effect before I get to the brake pedal.

No problem. You asked why folks would want less regen, so I answered...

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I don't hypermile.  The car is a tool to get me from place to place.  Tracking mileage is nice but I long ago stopped trying to get high numbers.  I like the fact that if I need to make an emergency stop the deceleration will start the instant I remove my foot from the accelerator and be in effect before I get to the brake pedal.

This is exactly my thinking. When driving in areas with a lot of red lights I shift to L. If I'm on the freeway and there is heavy traffic I shift to L. I can balance my foot on the pedal to be very close to what coasting in D would be and if I need to brake I can let off completely and have 25-34 kW of regen depending on my speed.

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This is exactly my thinking. When driving in areas with a lot of red lights I shift to L. If I'm on the freeway and there is heavy traffic I shift to L. I can balance my foot on the pedal to be very close to what coasting in D would be and if I need to brake I can let off completely and have 25-34 kW of regen depending on my speed.

That would make my foot tired over time. I have used it from time to time in stop and go traffic. But otherwise only when I need to decellerate to make a sudden stop.

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  • 2 weeks later...

In the Tesla, I think the only way to get regenerative braking is by letting off on the accelerator.  If you press the brake pedal, that stops the car the same is in conventional cars using friction.  If you set regenerative braking to Low, you will not be able stop very quickly without using the brakes, and hence will be unable to capture much regen when stopping.  By setting regenerative braking to Low, you are going to lose a lot of kinetic energy to the friction brakes. 

 

In order to drive efficiently in the Tesla, you have to learn how to exert greater control over the accelerator than in the Energi.  You don't want unintentional regen, which means, you need to carefully control the accelerator to maintain constant speed (probably best done using cruise control). 

 

In the Energi, you get regen by letting up on the accelerator and by pressing the brake pedal.  That means you can place the shifter in Drive (to get limited regenerative braking by letting up on the accelerator) and then pressing the brakes to get the maximum possible regen.  If you cause unintentional regen by letting up on the accelerator, you won't slow down the car much in Drive.  But you can still stop quickly and get maximum regen by using the brakes. 

Edited by larryh
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In the Tesla, I think the only way to get regenerative braking is by letting off on the accelerator.

That is correct.  There is a point where there is neither acceleration nor deceleration.  That is equivalent to holding the accelerator pedal in the Energi at the point where the battery gauge has neither an up arrow nor a down arrow.

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Looking at videos of the Tesla dashboard, it appears that the maximum regen for the Tesla is 65 kW.  The maximum regen for the Energi is 35 kW.   The curb weight of the Tesla is 4650 lbs.  The curb weight of the Energi is 3920 lbs.  From regen power P = -mav, where m is the car's mass, a is the deceleration (negative), and v is the speed of the car:

 

the Tesla decelerates (65/35)*(3920/4650) = 1.57 times faster than the Energi during regenerative braking. 

Edited by larryh
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That's pretty cool.  I've had my fair share of stops where I do not get 100% brake score.  If the Fusion regenerated like the Tesla, I may have gotten away without using friction brakes at all.

 

One foot driving would take a little getting used to.  I know Murphy likes to drive in L because of the instant braking while lifting off of the accelerator.  I think it's a good thing.

 

I saw my first Tesla in Michigan in the wild a few days ago (not at an EV car show).  I noticed the wheels first and as I approached my own car, got a better look at the rear and realized it was a Tesla.  Wasn't a performance model, but did have the 85kw battery.

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That is correct.  There is a point where there is neither acceleration nor deceleration.  That is equivalent to holding the accelerator pedal in the Energi at the point where the battery gauge has neither an up arrow nor a down arrow.

Close, but not quite. No arrows show when the current flow in/out of the battery is ~0.0-1.5 amps. For there to be this minimal current flow out of the HVB there must still be regen going on to provide the 500-1000 watts typically required to run the electronics via the DCDC converter. You'll notice that this point of no arrows above/below the HVB can vary. If the heat is on you can be braking and have the HVB show discharging because the regen is less than the power needed for the DCDC converter & heat. If the goal is to have no regen you should shift to Neutral. In Neutral the HVB arrow is always discharging because power is flowing from the HVB to the DCDC converter to the electronics.

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In the Tesla, I think the only way to get regenerative braking is by letting off on the accelerator.  If you press the brake pedal, that stops the car the same is in conventional cars using friction.  If you set regenerative braking to Low, you will not be able stop very quickly without using the brakes, and hence will be unable to capture much regen when stopping.  By setting regenerative braking to Low, you are going to lose a lot of kinetic energy to the friction brakes. 

 

In order to drive efficiently in the Tesla, you have to learn how to exert greater control over the accelerator than in the Energi.  You don't want unintentional regen, which means, you need to carefully control the accelerator to maintain constant speed (probably best done using cruise control). 

 

In the Energi, you get regen by letting up on the accelerator and by pressing the brake pedal.  That means you can place the shifter in Drive (to get limited regenerative braking by letting up on the accelerator) and then pressing the brakes to get the maximum possible regen.  If you cause unintentional regen by letting up on the accelerator, you won't slow down the car much in Drive.  But you can still stop quickly and get maximum regen by using the brakes. 

Man, that seems like a pain to me, having to massage the accelerator pedal. But I'm sure one gets used to it. A bit like drivng around in "L" mode with an Energi, I suppose, except more so.

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