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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Battery capacity @ 30K miles horrible

Battery Life

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76 replies to this topic

#61 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 24 September 2017 - 07:14 PM

That's terrific.

 

You've said before that you run at a "0% SoC" during those hot months, which I assume means your display says 0.0 kWh and the car doesn't allow any EV mode change.  Your results are surprising for two reasons:

1. SoC of the entire 7.6 kWh battery (including hybrid portion and safety buffer), on average, is running in the teens*, which seems too low for best practices.

2. If you plug in at a 0% SoC and set value charging to some later time, Ford's logic will nevertheless charge immediately to 10% and then stop (resuming later as per the value charge setting).  Ford must think it's not good to run at a 0.0 kWh reading.

 

Your results seem to prove them wrong, or at least the battery in those conditions is more resilient than common knowledge would think.  It's hard to imagine you doing any better using any other practices.

 

it seems that you've shown (though it's only one sample) that for the Energi,

- low SoC is not a concern, at least not in high heat (no data for cold temps).  

- strict adherence to low SoC in high heat has been shown to result in very low battery degradation.

 

Congrats, and thanks for posting this information.  Very enlightening.

 

 

* With a full hybrid portion, according to another post by you, that's 22% full of the complete battery; other figures come to as much as 26%.  But the car wants to run at about 50% hybrid portion, which puts it at ~12-16% on average.

 

I've seen a couple of reports of fleet vehicles bought used with a couple of years and near 100,000 miles on them that apparently have never got charged and the new owners are reporting like-new batteries on them. Based on other posts talking about high heat and high SoC together and considering my electric rate jumps from $0.06/kwh to $0.12/kwh in the summer I decided to just defer charging altogether in the summer months. So far this strategy seems to be working. And yes, I literally run at 0% SoC (yes, my ScanGauge stays close to 15% in hybrid mode) for months at a time with null ill effects so far.


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#62 OFFLINE   jsamp

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Posted 29 September 2017 - 12:36 PM

Wow!  My 2015 with 42,800 miles is only getting 4.2 to 4.4 kWh to hybrid mode, but I'm fully charging twice a day M-F and top off charges with mini trips on the weekend.

 

This seems to be one of the keys to battery life.  Keeping it full degrades it faster (in addition to multiple charges per day).  I'd change your habits if I were you if you want to save what battery you have left.  Do you charge immediately when you get to work or get home?  Maybe use Value Charge to charge closer to your leaving time so it doesn't sit at 100% too long.

 

Personally I'm only charging to what will suffice for my commute (~80% charge) rather than starting at 100% and ending with 20%.  I also don't start charging until I absolutely have to in order to have what I need for the trip.



#63 OFFLINE   Timewellspent

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Posted 01 October 2017 - 01:32 PM

This seems to be one of the keys to battery life.  Keeping it full degrades it faster (in addition to multiple charges per day).  I'd change your habits if I were you if you want to save what battery you have left.  Do you charge immediately when you get to work or get home?  Maybe use Value Charge to charge closer to your leaving time so it doesn't sit at 100% too long.

 

Personally I'm only charging to what will suffice for my commute (~80% charge) rather than starting at 100% and ending with 20%.  I also don't start charging until I absolutely have to in order to have what I need for the trip.

 

My commute is 26 miles and I get around 22 miles on battery.  I charge right away at work, because I will run out for short trips that won't use gas at all.  When I get home after work, I use value charge to delay so it is ready for morning commute. I'm happy with what I'm getting and not going to change to save the battery.  Getting over 100 MPG lifetime and only hitting the gas station once a month compared to once a week works for me.


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#64 OFFLINE   Spiffster

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Posted 03 October 2017 - 10:01 AM

I just bought a (new) leftover 2015 Energi thats been sitting on the lot for over 2 years... ($25k OTD plus I get state and federal rebate/credit of about $9k total) Anyway, I can eke out 25 miles from the battery so I suppose its in relatively good shape. My commute to work is 20 miles and I drop my two kids off at school and daycare. I will charge at work too. So at home I am charging overnight on regular 120V circuit, and at work I will be charging at 240V. I will maximize EV driving and am not going to worry about the battery. I do live in a relatively cool climate though (CO).


Edited by Spiffster, 03 October 2017 - 10:03 AM.


#65 OFFLINE   Petethor

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Posted 10 October 2017 - 08:20 AM

2013 Ford Fusion Se Energi that I am fighting with Ford the charge on the vehicle is getting worse. I have a 240 volt charger and the maximum charge I get on the battery is 15mpg. I will most likely get less than 14mpg.

The charge amount each year is going down going down. I purchase vehicle new in 2014 and I did get 22mpg per charge. After the first winter 22mpg went down to 20mpg. 

Ford tells me that the indicator was off because I replaced the tires so they recalibrated and I drove it for a 1000 miles only to experience the same issue.

I took back to Ford again they had the vehicle for 4 days and they told me to drive it for a 1000 miles again only to have the same problem.

It seems to me that the Battery is the issue and Ford does not want to replace it.



#66 OFFLINE   jsamp

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Posted 11 October 2017 - 04:12 PM

2013 Ford Fusion Se Energi that I am fighting with Ford the charge on the vehicle is getting worse. I have a 240 volt charger and the maximum charge I get on the battery is 15mpg. I will most likely get less than 14mpg.

The charge amount each year is going down going down. I purchase vehicle new in 2014 and I did get 22mpg per charge. After the first winter 22mpg went down to 20mpg. 

Ford tells me that the indicator was off because I replaced the tires so they recalibrated and I drove it for a 1000 miles only to experience the same issue.

I took back to Ford again they had the vehicle for 4 days and they told me to drive it for a 1000 miles again only to have the same problem.

It seems to me that the Battery is the issue and Ford does not want to replace it.

 

I'm assuming you mean 14 miles, not mpg.  The miles is only an estimate, but if you drive the same route in the same manner, and the estimate is dropping (and correspondingly if the amount of charge in kWh required to go from zero to full is dropping) then you are definitely losing capacity.  I hope it works out for you, but it sounds like you may be joining the class action lawsuit.



#67 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 08:01 PM

2013 Ford Fusion Se Energi that I am fighting with Ford the charge on the vehicle is getting worse. I have a 240 volt charger and the maximum charge I get on the battery is 15mpg. I will most likely get less than 14mpg.

The charge amount each year is going down going down. I purchase vehicle new in 2014 and I did get 22mpg per charge. After the first winter 22mpg went down to 20mpg. 

Ford tells me that the indicator was off because I replaced the tires so they recalibrated and I drove it for a 1000 miles only to experience the same issue.

I took back to Ford again they had the vehicle for 4 days and they told me to drive it for a 1000 miles again only to have the same problem.

It seems to me that the Battery is the issue and Ford does not want to replace it.

 

Range (in miles) doesn't really matter all that much...at least to us. It's the kwh you get out of a charge that matters. What are you getting now?


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#68 OFFLINE   unhappycustomer

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Posted 21 January 2018 - 11:47 AM

I have a 2014 Fusion Energi with 67,000 miles, I'm getting about 3.5 kWh.

 

I brought it to the dealer twice, they're telling me it's perfectly normal and hasn't degraded. Kept it each time for multiple days.

According to one of the dealerships, the computer in the Fusion Energi is a (quote) "super computer", and if anything would be wrong with the battery, the

"dashboard would light up like a christmas tree". I have asked them if they can find out how much capacity the battery has remaining, unfortunately the super computer is not

able to provide this kind of information. When I tell them that on a full charge it shows 3.5 kWh before the battery is empty, they play stupid, they don't know what that is supposed to mean.

The battery has not degraded. 

 

They have explained to me that in order to get the advertised 21 miles I will have to go downhill with the vehicle turned off.

 

Since I live in California there is a warranty by law, and while I'm unable to find the specific law (if someone has a link I'd appreciate it), I found this quote from the New York Times:

 

https://www.nytimes....-a-warning.html

 
"The California-spec warranty does not allow for degradation of the battery’s capacity. If it’s not performing to “the highest standard” — that is, as new — during the warranty period, G.M. must repair or replace it, according to David Clegern, a spokesman for the California Air Resources Board."
 
I conclude that my battery, which has about 60% of the capacity left (3.5kWh/5.8kWh new), should be replaced under warranty.
 
I'm also curious about the lemon law. My understanding is that after a reasonable amount of repair attempts, Ford would be forced to buy back my old car at full purchase price. I obviously prefer that over a battery replacement, and since it seems like the dealerships are unable to repair I wonder if that's an option and if anyone has any experience with that and can help. I think partially it's about documenting the repair attempt (in my case they fail to agree that something is wrong, which may be a problem). Would really appreciate if someone can offer some insights.


#69 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 07:42 AM

 

I have a 2014 Fusion Energi with 67,000 miles, I'm getting about 3.5 kWh.

 

 

That's a pretty significant degradation. What are your charging habits like? Can you identify any reason why the degradation may be extreme in your case?


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#70 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 07:48 AM

The weather was mild this morning in St. Louis so I did a discharge test. I got 5.5 kwh until the switch to hybrid mode. I was able to draw down an additional 0.4 kwh for a total of 5.9 kwh. I have a 2015 with 42,000 miles and about 400 charge/discharge cycles on the vehicle. I do not charge during the summer months when electric rates and temperatures are high. Obviously I have little to no degradation. I attribute most of this to keeping the HVB at a low SoC during hot weather and I drive like an old lady


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#71 OFFLINE   jj2me

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 09:27 AM

Do you often keep your charge at 100% in cold weather, i.e., you only take notice of high SoC in the summer?

(My car is sitting at 100% now at 50 degree F, and I do this too often, I think.)

Edited by jj2me, 22 January 2018 - 09:32 AM.


#72 OFFLINE   bdginmo

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 12:57 PM

Do you often keep your charge at 100% in cold weather, i.e., you only take notice of high SoC in the summer?

(My car is sitting at 100% now at 50 degree F, and I do this too often, I think.)

 

Not very often. I charge on 240v and I use the value charging profile to get it to charge in the morning before I go to work. I will occasionally leave it 100% charged in the cold, but it's an exception rather than a rule. 

 

In the summer I leave it at 0% for months at a time. We've had a few reports on here of people buying used CMax's or Fusion's in which it is believe they were rarely if ever charged and the HVB's had little or no degradation. So it seem like leaving them at 0% SoC isn't much of a concern. So far my experience fits that narrative as well.

 

I also use a ScanGauge to monitor the HVB temperature.


Edited by bdginmo, 22 January 2018 - 12:57 PM.

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#73 OFFLINE   unhappycustomer

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 08:29 PM

That's a pretty significant degradation. What are your charging habits like? Can you identify any reason why the degradation may be extreme in your case?

 

 

I charge overnight, everyday at home (usually from 0% to 100%). Monday-Friday I drive to work with depletes my battery and I change at work as well.

 

So I think it save to say that I charge 12 times a week almost always. Not sure if it matters, but at home I charge with 120 Volt, at work with 240 Volt.



#74 OFFLINE   jsamp

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 10:15 AM

I charge overnight, everyday at home (usually from 0% to 100%). Monday-Friday I drive to work with depletes my battery and I change at work as well.

 

So I think it save to say that I charge 12 times a week almost always. Not sure if it matters, but at home I charge with 120 Volt, at work with 240 Volt.

 

   Of all the people on this site have reported severe battery capacity loss, the two causes that seem to do the most damage to the battery are twice daily charging, and high battery temperatures (either charging or driving).  Your twice daily charging seems to have really taken its toll on your battery. 

 

   I don't know where in CA you are, but central valley summers can easily exceed the safe battery limits (~105°F) and that's just the outside temp, not the battery temp.  While your battery is already degraded a bunch, you can stop or slow future damage by avoiding these two situations.  There's a guy on the C-Max Energi site who had similar degradation issues who started monitoring battery temp via PID reader.  Once he limited his use of battery to below 105 his degradation almost stopped completely.



#75 OFFLINE   Cr0m

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 07:46 PM

 

I have a 2014 Fusion Energi with 67,000 miles, I'm getting about 3.5 kWh.

 

 

First, I am new to this forum and finally happy I found a place where Energi drivers are having the same problems as I.  The post above may have well as been from me.  I also have a 2014 Energi with around 64,000 miles and have seen the degradation of the same magnitude.  I have not been as attentive to kWh, but get 3.5-3.9 on a full discharge (it varies slightly day to day).  Charging time on  HV charger in garage is now 1.5 hours (used to be closer to 2.3-2.5 hrs back when I got it) and range is 13-14 miles now (used to get 19-21 back in the early days).

 

I realize now my 2x a day full charging and depleting on my 23 mile one-way commute is likely the culprit as it was never made clear to me anywhere that charging habits like that would perhaps contribute to a 40% loss of capacity.

 

My service center and Ford corporate experience on this issue has been as follows:

 

In 2016, I was about 25% degraded and took to the service center (great folks and the manager really tried to understand the issue as this EV stuff is pretty new to most service centers).  They did get permission to replace the computer, saying that was likely causing the reduced charging times, etc.   As y'all would guess, it made no difference.

 

I went back in very early January this year this year, now at 40% capacity loss.  They did testing and everything and the manager really seemed to sympathize and tried to see if Ford would allow a battery replacement (even helping with a rental car for me...great service at the dealership).  Big fat No from Detroit!  They did not care about kWh or charge times, they only seemed to focus on the "distance".   The document with the service notes said Ford corporate said "the sticker says the range would be 0-19 miles and as long as the car is doing that, it is "in spec" and not worth a warranty repair (meaning the only thing left is battery replacement).  The service manager said I should talk to Ford and open a ticket.

 

I did that, and after opening the ticket and saying I would get called back in 2 days heard nothing for a week.  Called back and got "Earl" the customer service guy.  Earl proceeded to provide the worst customer service experience I have ever had.  He was condescending, treated me like I did not know what I was doing and kept trying to steer me away from talking about kWh or charge times, trying to make it sound like all that matters is distance.  He did not seek to understand, sympathize or help and was outright rude.  Then in the end said I needed to work with the dealership service center (full circle trip).

 

I did know there may be battery issues so I did lease the vehicle and I really should have just turned it in and walked away at the end.  But as I did finally get the HOV exemption in Denver about a year before my lease was up (its tied to the VIN and non-transferable), so I bought out the lease and kept the car (saving $3000+ a year in tolls was just too much money to pass up and saves me 30-45 minutes of drive time daily).

 

Battery issue aside, I do really enjoy the car (short of the MyFordTouch fiasco that you are stuck with for all eternity of ownership, but that is another thread), especially the sleek looks (Bolt/Volt/Leaf drivers are jealous of the sweeter lines of the Fusion!), safety features such as adaptive cruise, lane sensing and the like (almost feels like "self driving" some days).  It still gets avg. 70-80 MPG with occasional longer trips, so I will keep driving (gotta save toll money) and maybe use it as an extra "get to high school car" when kid gets to driving.   I just wish Ford had the same mentality and customer understanding around delivering the customer experience with EV and dashboard tech that a company like Tesla does.  People just will not/should not "upgrade their car" like a cell phone when the battery gets weak-sause or the "OS" of car's system is slow, old and stupid in 3-4 years.  Instead, sadly, Ford is ensuring customers like me will buy a different brand next time after being a "Ford guy" for a long time (5 cars in with my extended family).  Saving pennies for a Model S as someone earlier in the thread said... :happy feet:


Edited by Cr0m, 24 January 2018 - 07:48 PM.


#76 OFFLINE   unhappycustomer

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:46 PM

What bothers me that there is a warranty by law. I seems they don’t want to honor the warranty that they have to provide by law. That’s really not right.

#77 OFFLINE   My14Energi

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 11:34 AM

My kwh has decreased but range is still 20

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