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Battery Life Expectancy


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27 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   wcochrane

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 05:03 AM

Has anyone heard how long (milage or years) the battery is supposed to last before needing replacement in the energi and what the estimated cost would be? When I was considering a Tesla last year, they said the battery life was about 1000,000 miles and the cost to replace the larger battery in the Model S was around $30k but you could buy one at the same time as you purchased the car for about half of that and then get it installed when needed. I drive about 30,000+/- miles a year so replacing the battery on top off the price of the car in the first five years is something I am concerned about. Thanks for any info you all might have heard.










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#2 OFFLINE   jeff_h

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:33 AM

I drive about 40k miles per year, and just sold my 2010 Fusion Hybrid last week - it was 3½ years old and had 145k miles and the battery (and the rest of the car) still worked like new.  Before that I had a Prius for 130k miles and sold it to a co-worker, who still drives it to work each day and now at 180k miles the HV battery is still fine.

 

Before I sold it (to a good friend) I replaced the 12V battery as routine maintenance before handing it over, and so I went onto fordparts.com to look up the battery from there.  The HV battery was also listed there for $4,300 (I think), don't know if that would also require other ancillary items to also be purchased or what the labor cost would be to replace it, but it wasn't $30k!  Also as the number of these cars grows, there would likely be HV batteries available from salvage yards from totalled vehicles for probably a lot less, for those who would want to go that route.

 

So when purchasing one of these types of cars, I personally don't put too much stock into the worries about HV batteries going bad and needing big bucks to replace.  Of course it can happen, but the same can be said for any major component.


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2013 Fusion Titanium Energi Ruby Red   2013 Fusion Titanium Energi Deep Impact Blue

 

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#3 OFFLINE   rprobst

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Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:57 AM

When I was considering a Tesla last year, they said the battery life was about 1000,000 miles and the cost to replace the larger battery in the Model S was around $30k ...


"1000,000 miles"? Typo? Or did they really say one million?

If it's a million miles, I would replace any car before that. If they said 100,000 miles and then you have to spend $30k, then I'm afraid Tesla will never get over being a rich man's toy.

Fusion Energi looks like the first truly mainstream plug-in. Volt was self-consciously niche.

#4 OFFLINE   wcochrane

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 02:19 PM

Opps, should have been 100,000.



#5 OFFLINE   ChuckJ

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 03:06 PM

I think the hybrid is warranted for 8 years and if the Energi is not, it's a deal killer for me.

 

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#6 OFFLINE   energifan

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Posted 17 January 2013 - 10:56 PM

This site says it's the 8yr/100,000 mile

http://www.myfusione...energi-warranty



#7 OFFLINE   ChuckJ

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Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:12 PM

This site says it's the 8yr/100,000 mile

http://www.myfusione...energi-warranty

I suspected that.  Thanks for finding it energifan.

 

ChuckJ



#8 OFFLINE   pluggedin

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 06:44 AM

Here is a link to the 2013 Model Year Ford Hybrid Car and Electric Vehicle Warranty Guide. This should include the Energi, even though it doesn't specifically say so: http://www.ford.com/...ridWarranty.pdf. Please note it is in an .pdf format. Pay particular attention to pages 21 and 22.

 

Basically, if you live in California, or any state that has adopted and enforces California emissions, the ion battery warranty will be 10 years/150,000 miles. Those of the rest of us humps who live in states other than California or the other qualifying states (see page 22 for a list of the those states and the requirements you must meet) will receive a lessor 8 year/100,000 mile warranty.

 

The warranty I mentioned here only pertains to the ion battery only. Anything going to or coming from the battery carries a different warranty schedule and they are listed separately. Or at least that's the way it appears to me.

 

The difference in battery warranty that is based on the state in which you live seems inequitable and discriminatory to me. For me, one size should fit all. But I will give up 2 years/50,000 miles to not have to live in the land of the fruits and nuts...and I was born and raised there.


Model: 2013 Titanium Ruby Red Fusion Energi ; Date Ordered: 11/5/12; Parts pulled: 1/18/13; VIN: 1/23/13 (DR242421); Window Sticker: 1/31/13; Build Week: 2/4/13; Built: 2/7/13; Released for Shipping: Off site 2/14/13, "in plant" awaiting shipment 2/23/13 ; Shipped: 3/18/13; ETA: 3/26/13; Actual Delivery: 3/26/13.

 

191089.png

 

I'm tracking MPG, NOT MPGe

 


 

 


#9 OFFLINE   Mr. Fusion

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:14 PM

There's great stories of Taxi Prius's and Escapes that are forced to be retired at 300,000, yet have zero hybrid issues.

 

At least for the Escape, they're so conservative with the range of battery (Between 35% and 55%) state of charge, that the wear and tear on these things can easily make it to the 150,000 mile warranty.


Tuxedo Black Energi Titanium ordered 01/15/2013, VIN 3FA6P0SU3DR272365 rec'd on 2/23/2013, Sticker available 3/15/2013, Built 03/22/2013, Delivered 4/10/2013
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"Gas?? Where we're going... We don't need gas..." - As long as it's less than 21 miles away.

#10 OFFLINE   ChuckJ

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:17 PM

There's great stories of Taxi Prius's and Escapes that are forced to be retired at 300,000, yet have zero hybrid issues.

 

At least for the Escape, they're so conservative with the range of battery (Between 35% and 55%) state of charge, that the wear and tear on these things can easily make it to the 150,000 mile warranty.

But the Energi is bound to use a much broader range, so wouldn't that reduce battery life?

 

ChuckJ



#11 OFFLINE   Mr. Fusion

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:25 PM

But the Energi is bound to use a much broader range, so wouldn't that reduce battery life?

 

ChuckJ

Maybe they did the same thing with the Energi... Sized it big, just to use a smaller part??

 

Maybe it's a totally different story with Li-ion vs. NiMH.

 

We need someone to put a Scan Gauge on a C-Max Energi to see what's going on with the State of Charge.


Tuxedo Black Energi Titanium ordered 01/15/2013, VIN 3FA6P0SU3DR272365 rec'd on 2/23/2013, Sticker available 3/15/2013, Built 03/22/2013, Delivered 4/10/2013
mr-fusion.jpg
"Gas?? Where we're going... We don't need gas..." - As long as it's less than 21 miles away.

#12 OFFLINE   ChuckJ

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

Maybe they did the same thing with the Energi... Sized it big, just to use a smaller part??

 

Maybe it's a totally different story with Li-ion vs. NiMH.

 

We need someone to put a Scan Gauge on a C-Max Energi to see what's going on with the State of Charge.

I've got an electric motorcycle and the data I got shows that LifePo4 life goes down as a function of drain and overcharge also (more if you get it down past 25% than if you charge it up to 90%.  

 

ChuckJ



#13 OFFLINE   DelS

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:54 AM

Here is a link to the 2013 Model Year Ford Hybrid Car and Electric Vehicle Warranty Guide. This should include the Energi, even though it doesn't specifically say so: http://www.ford.com/...ridWarranty.pdf. Please note it is in an .pdf format. Pay particular attention to pages 21 and 22.

 

Basically, if you live in California, or any state that has adopted and enforces California emissions, the ion battery warranty will be 10 years/150,000 miles. Those of the rest of us humps who live in states other than California or the other qualifying states (see page 22 for a list of the those states and the requirements you must meet) will receive a lessor 8 year/100,000 mile warranty.

 

The warranty I mentioned here only pertains to the ion battery only. Anything going to or coming from the battery carries a different warranty schedule and they are listed separately. Or at least that's the way it appears to me.

 

The difference in battery warranty that is based on the state in which you live seems inequitable and discriminatory to me. For me, one size should fit all. But I will give up 2 years/50,000 miles to not have to live in the land of the fruits and nuts...and I was born and raised there.

It makes sense to warranty the battery longer for us in California-- it's better for us lowly consumers, and Cali standards probably make the standards better for you even way out there in Arizona, which is one of the main points.  Just like our stringent air standards drag less and less pollution east of L.A. towards Tucson.   And you should be happy, for most probably, your better battery.    I heard it's nice down there in Tucson, but at least the university is good.  ;-) 



#14 OFFLINE   pluggedin

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:29 AM

It makes sense to warranty the battery longer for us in California-- it's better for us lowly consumers, and Cali standards probably make the standards better for you even way out there in Arizona, which is one of the main points.  Just like our stringent air standards drag less and less pollution east of L.A. towards Tucson.   And you should be happy, for most probably, your better battery.    I heard it's nice down there in Tucson, but at least the university is good.  ;-) 

Yeah, I'm just jealous because I would like the benefit of the 2 year/50K warranty too. Don't take the California bashing too seriously, I had a great time growing up on the beaches in Long Beach and Huntington Beach. Schools were good there as well. :wub:


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Model: 2013 Titanium Ruby Red Fusion Energi ; Date Ordered: 11/5/12; Parts pulled: 1/18/13; VIN: 1/23/13 (DR242421); Window Sticker: 1/31/13; Build Week: 2/4/13; Built: 2/7/13; Released for Shipping: Off site 2/14/13, "in plant" awaiting shipment 2/23/13 ; Shipped: 3/18/13; ETA: 3/26/13; Actual Delivery: 3/26/13.

 

191089.png

 

I'm tracking MPG, NOT MPGe

 


 

 


#15 OFFLINE   FusionEnergi

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:13 AM

I bought my 2004 civic hybrid new in alaska. Had it there for 2 and a half years then took it to new mexico for 2 and a half years. Have had it here in virginia ever since and have not noticed any battery loss or issues. I figure the new batteries are made even better. I wouldnt be surprised to get 15-20 years out of it.
<p>2013 Tuxedo Black Titanium w/Nav / Date ordered: Nov 2012 VIN Received: Feb 22 / Window Sticker Available: March 13 / Scheduled Build Week: March 18 / Actual Build Date: March 19, 2013 / Released from Factory for Shipping: March 20ish / Dealer Lot: April 1st / Took Delivery: April 2nd 2013 / Fuel Economy: 142MPGe or 999.9MPG

#16 OFFLINE   bobk

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:22 AM

Page 11 (Note: Lithium-Ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss) is a concern also, however I would have expected any HV manufacturer to include such wording.

 

I think that Ford should clarify what level of capacity loss is expected at various points in time, and therefore will not be convered under warranty. To say "8 years/100000 miles" or whatever may mislead - people may be under the impression that their battery will still get them 21 miles or whatever it is every time after 8 years, when it actually won't. And the problem is that that then becomes a problem for some people who operate at the high end of that rage and rely on the full capacity to go full-electric for their daily commute, they will then need to possibly have them replaced at their own cost, prior to the warranty period expiration. Positive anecdotal evidence like the above is appreciated and reassuring but obviously Ford had to base the 8/100K on something and that's the science I'd like to see (graduated as EE but have been writing software for 20 years).

 

Edit: I realize that all parts, including HV batteries, in all cars, are subject to "normal" wear and tear, and that any part can fail at any time. However current car engineering is mature enough where (given usage pattern) we can generally predict average lifespans of components that undergo a lot of duty cycles, whether they are break pads, fan belts or (I hope) LiIon batteries.


Edited by bobk, 06 February 2013 - 01:33 PM.


#17 OFFLINE   ChuckJ

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:03 PM

I've never heard of a manufacturer not honoring their battery warranty.  I'm not sure that people won't be getting 25-30 miles per charge at first reducing to 21 by the time it's 8 years old.  We'll have to see.

 

ChuckJ



#18 OFFLINE   shaggy314

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:13 PM

Ask Nissan Leaf owner's...

 

http://green.autoblo...-capacity-loss/


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#19 OFFLINE   bobk

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:31 PM

Thanks for the replies. ChuckJ, I wasn't suggesting that Ford wouldn't honor the warranty as written, for problems that are covered by it.  But capacity loss, as Ford has defined it but has not communicated out specifics of (yet), appears not to be covered by them, but is (now) covered by Nissan. Not sure where the 25-30 comes from as 21 is the published number as I understand it and I doubt that's the low end.

 

My concern is that other manufacturers appear to be able to put somewhat more structure around what is and is not covered by "capacity loss", so it would be good if Ford could do the same, prior to large numbers of people purchasing the vehicle. I'm trying to figure out whether this is too big of an unknown for me or not. In the absence of any numbers from Ford I may have to use Nissan's predictions as a guide.


Edited by bobk, 06 February 2013 - 05:36 PM.


#20 OFFLINE   pluggedin

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 06:15 PM

Thanks for the replies. ChuckJ, I wasn't suggesting that Ford wouldn't honor the warranty as written, for problems that are covered by it.  But capacity loss, as Ford has defined it but has not communicated out specifics of (yet), appears not to be covered by them, but is (now) covered by Nissan. Not sure where the 25-30 comes from as 21 is the published number as I understand it and I doubt that's the low end.

 

My concern is that other manufacturers appear to be able to put somewhat more structure around what is and is not covered by "capacity loss", so it would be good if Ford could do the same, prior to large numbers of people purchasing the vehicle. I'm trying to figure out whether this is too big of an unknown for me or not. In the absence of any numbers from Ford I may have to use Nissan's predictions as a guide.

Those of us who have had our Energi on order since Oct/Nov are painfully aware that Ford has been really stingy with releasing ANY information about this car, much less it's battery. We still don't know how it will be cooled.

 

In time all of that information will come out but Ford is just not going to show its cards until they are played...apparently. It's harder for their competition to hit a moving target, so to speak.

 

Capacity loss is such a subjective term, in relationship to battery performance. I mean, there are many different variables that can have an effect on a battery and its ability to maintain a full charge over time.

 

As an example, when I bought my golf cart six years ago replacement batteries for the cart ran about $500 (for 6). Today they cost around $900 (price of lead went up). The warranty, six years ago, was 36 months, now it's 18 months. And I am lucky to get 18 months out of them.

 

Heat is a killer of batteries and the beating they take driving to a from the course and the beating they take while on the golf course are all reasons for the rapid degradation of the batteries but the heat here in the desert is the main culprit. Even my car battery doesn't last that long here.

 

So where you are and how you drive the car, and maintain it, will all come into play concerning capacity loss over time. If you drive in a hilly region in the heat you will be a lot harder on the battery than someone who drives on flat ground in a mild climate. How would Ford gauge that for you?

 

The good news for us is that Ford is cooling their batteries in some way unknown to us at this time but they have taken ambient  temperature into consideration when putting the car together. Or so I read.

 

And then there is all of the experience that Toyota (with the Prius) and other manufactures have had with their batteries over the past decade, or so, and their record has been pretty impressive. Other wise I might not be looking to buy a plug in hybrid.


Model: 2013 Titanium Ruby Red Fusion Energi ; Date Ordered: 11/5/12; Parts pulled: 1/18/13; VIN: 1/23/13 (DR242421); Window Sticker: 1/31/13; Build Week: 2/4/13; Built: 2/7/13; Released for Shipping: Off site 2/14/13, "in plant" awaiting shipment 2/23/13 ; Shipped: 3/18/13; ETA: 3/26/13; Actual Delivery: 3/26/13.

 

191089.png

 

I'm tracking MPG, NOT MPGe

 


 

 





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