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Considering Energi--End Game??


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19 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   JeffyT

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 10:53 AM

I've always driven typical ICE automobiles. I maintain them well and drive the for at least 10 years. When I decide to move on, it's usually easy to find a buyer--someone who wants an affordable well-maintained car, even a 10-15 year old one, and I may get a couple thousand toward the purchase of my next car.

 

I'm considering getting a low-mileage used FFE. Where will I be with this car in 10 years? These are still niche cars with a limited market/demand. And with 10 years on the battery, what will I do when it's time to dispose of the car? This is really the only concern I have about the potential purchase.










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#2 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 11:12 AM

Since they were introduced in 2013 no one will know what the 10 year experience will be for another 5 years.

I expected to see one with a bigger battery by now but that hasn't happened.



#3 OFFLINE   jsamp

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 11:54 AM

At this point I'm guessing it'll only be worth something as a parts car at 10+ years old. 

 

Ford will not likely offer any upgraded batteries, and anyone purchasing a car that old will not like the price of a replacement battery (currently $6800) that will not come down very much due to low volume.  Aftermarket batteries will also be few and expensive due to low volumes as well.

 

Likely the model won't be around much longer as a PHEV.


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#4 OFFLINE   4cylinder

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 06:06 PM

Considering that hybrids only really took off around the mid-2000s, there isn't much reference data.

 

Data on Priuses that have exceeded 10 years of age might be the most relevant. Afaik most are still running, and their batteries aren't difficult to replace, but I can't say the same for Ford hybrids since they aren't as popular.


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#5 OFFLINE   jj2me

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 07:35 PM

We can hope that if the battery degrades significantly, the car will still perform every bit as well as a Fusion Hybrid. Though the long-lived FFHs on the road now use a different battery chemistry (NiMH), so we don't yet know how we'll fare in any case.

 

EDIT: The 2nd review (currently, it might get pushed down over time) on this Edmunds Customer Reviews page of a 2013 Fusion Hybrid (Li-ion battery like ours) states they've gone 196,000 trouble-free miles.


Edited by jj2me, 06 February 2018 - 06:36 AM.

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#6 OFFLINE   jsamp

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 09:11 AM

Considering that hybrids only really took off around the mid-2000s, there isn't much reference data.

 

Data on Priuses that have exceeded 10 years of age might be the most relevant. Afaik most are still running, and their batteries aren't difficult to replace, but I can't say the same for Ford hybrids since they aren't as popular.

 

 

Good point, but the only Prii that are comparable would be the 2009 an newer PIP which is when they started using Li-Ion batteries.  All of the regular Prii were NiMH.



#7 OFFLINE   4cylinder

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 09:21 AM

Good point, but the only Prii that are comparable would be the 2009 an newer PIP which is when they started using Li-Ion batteries.  All of the regular Prii were NiMH.

 

Ah right, forgot that most hybrids, including the first gen Fusion Hybrid, used NiMH.

 

We really don't have ANY reliable comparison points for super-long-term durability of Li-Ion in cars then :( The oldest one I can think of is the 2011 Chevy Volt.

 

As far as non-hybrid related components go, I find that Ford is not bad for long-term reliability. Still playing catch up with the Japanese, but well ahead of anything from Germany or the UK.


Edited by 4cylinder, 06 February 2018 - 09:23 AM.


#8 OFFLINE   JeffyT

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 10:36 AM

Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the input. 

I have a daily 40-mi round trip commute. I have about 10 years left of daily commute, if things continue as they are. I have a free charging station 1/2 mi from my office. And I could use the walk. Occasional longer trips, several per year. If we take longer road trip, we would take wife's car, or we would just fly. I don't travel much. Running around weekend errands.

 

So, I figure it like this--buy a used FFE with lower miles, drive it for 10 years, and part company with it--donate it to my "favorite public radio station," etc. Any used car I buy will essentially be used up after I'm done with it regardless. I love this technology, love the car. I know you folks may have some bias, but if anyone can see any flaw in my reasoning, I'd be happy to hear it!



#9 OFFLINE   jsamp

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 10:50 AM

Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the input. 

I have a daily 40-mi round trip commute. I have about 10 years left of daily commute, if things continue as they are. I have a free charging station 1/2 mi from my office. And I could use the walk. Occasional longer trips, several per year. If we take longer road trip, we would take wife's car, or we would just fly. I don't travel much. Running around weekend errands.

 

So, I figure it like this--buy a used FFE with lower miles, drive it for 10 years, and part company with it--donate it to my "favorite public radio station," etc. Any used car I buy will essentially be used up after I'm done with it regardless. I love this technology, love the car. I know you folks may have some bias, but if anyone can see any flaw in my reasoning, I'd be happy to hear it!

 

Sounds like you are intending to charge twice a day, home and work?  Check out some of the threads on battery life.  Those charging twice a day are seeing severe degradation of the battery (30% loss or more) in as little as 2 years.  You won't be getting 20 miles per charge in a few years if you are daily charging twice.

 

Obviously some EV miles is better than no EV miles, but just wanted you to be aware of the losses over time. 


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#10 OFFLINE   jj2me

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 01:18 PM

Page 16 of these viewgraphs, which model PHEVs' battery effects, shows graphed estimates of battery degradation against depth of discharge (DoD).  It shows for 2 cycles/day to only have 20% degradation after 10 years, the DoD should be 56% or less (54% is better because after that it dips fast).

 

If we take longer road trip, we would take wife's car, or we would just fly.

 

If the trunk space is adequate for your longer trips, this is a very nice car, especially if you have adaptive cruise control.  You'll get great gas mileage strictly as a hybrid (I got 44 mpg on a recent 400-mile trip with no EV-mode use).


Edited by jj2me, 07 February 2018 - 01:20 PM.


#11 OFFLINE   JeffyT

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Posted 07 February 2018 - 04:49 PM

If the trunk space is adequate for your longer trips, this is a very nice car, especially if you have adaptive cruise control.  You'll get great gas mileage strictly as a hybrid (I got 44 mpg on a recent 400-mile trip with no EV-mode use).

 


Yes, the trunk space. Certainly not a deal-breaker. Depends on how many of us are traveling, I suppose, kids, one or three. I've never had adaptive cruise. I'm looking forward to that no matter which direction I go. I appreciate the link. That's all interesting. This car's a hobby as much as a way to get around, looks like!


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#12 OFFLINE   4cylinder

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 08:52 AM

Yes, the trunk space. Certainly not a deal-breaker. Depends on how many of us are traveling, I suppose, kids, one or three. I've never had adaptive cruise. I'm looking forward to that no matter which direction I go. I appreciate the link. That's all interesting. This car's a hobby as much as a way to get around, looks like!

 

When I owned a 2013 Fusion hybrid that honestly didn't have much equipment (just nav, luxury package, and park assist), it was still impressive enough that driving it became a sort of "hobby" :) I would frequently try to beat my last fuel economy numbers, and as a bonus it encouraged excessively safe driving since I basically refused to speed once I got immersed with the car.

 

With the Energi, the "hobbying" continues especially now that I have all the safety tech.

 

Once you experience adaptive cruise for the first time, you will never want to own another car without one. I now dread taking long drives in base model rental cars lol.


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#13 OFFLINE   JeffyT

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 01:19 PM

When I owned a 2013 Fusion hybrid that honestly didn't have much equipment (just nav, luxury package, and park assist), it was still impressive enough that driving it became a sort of "hobby" :) I would frequently try to beat my last fuel economy numbers, and as a bonus it encouraged excessively safe driving since I basically refused to speed once I got immersed with the car.

 

With the Energi, the "hobbying" continues especially now that I have all the safety tech.

 

Once you experience adaptive cruise for the first time, you will never want to own another car without one. I now dread taking long drives in base model rental cars lol.

 

I can relate to this, heh! 

So, further reading seems to tell me me that 1) you can do certain things to slow the degradation of the HVB; 2) the battery degradation levels off at a point, regardless of how fast the capacity has degraded; and 3) once the degradation has occurred, worst-case scenario is the FFE sort of becomes a hybrid. 
 

Some folks seem to be less interested in tweaking their driving/charging styles, using the car exactly how they want to, plugging in when they can or want to, and they are happy with the car anyway.

 

All correct?


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#14 OFFLINE   murphy

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 04:36 AM

Yes.  The car does not control me.  I control the car.  I use it the way that I want to use it.  It is not an investment.  It is guaranteed to lose value.  When I got rid of my 2002 Crown Victoria the most I could get for it was $600.  I don't care what its capabilities will be when I get rid of it.  I bought the car to use it, not to preserve it for the next owner.  YMMV.


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#15 OFFLINE   jsamp

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:32 PM

I can relate to this, heh! 

So, further reading seems to tell me me that 1) you can do certain things to slow the degradation of the HVB; 2) the battery degradation levels off at a point, regardless of how fast the capacity has degraded; and 3) once the degradation has occurred, worst-case scenario is the FFE sort of becomes a hybrid. 
 

Some folks seem to be less interested in tweaking their driving/charging styles, using the car exactly how they want to, plugging in when they can or want to, and they are happy with the car anyway.

 

All correct?

 

I'm not sure your #2 is correct.  It has been demonstrated that one can stop degradation by changing habits, but no evidence (other than anecdotal claims) has been given to show that it stops on its own.  1 and 3 stand.


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#16 OFFLINE   luckyleo

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 08:40 AM

 I bought a 2017 Titanium with 24000 miles for around $20K.   It does have all the bells and whistles (adaptive cruise, maintain lane, moon/sun roof, upgraded rims/tires,etc).   

I do live in Florida which seems to be an excellent climate for electric/hybrid cars.   As a hybrid I get low 40s cruising at 70 to 80 mph.   When I plug in, I get 100+.  

It takes about 7 hours at 110V and 2 hours at 220V to fully charge the battery.  Some studies show the battery should not be fully charged/discharged and should be kept in a middle range. 

I have read articles from Ford that the battery will last the life of the car.   There is also the 8 year 100,000 mile hybrid drivetrain warranty.

  Like you said, it can be a hobby.  Sometimes I find spaces closer than handicap parking since I have an EV.  Other times I am willing to walk the half mile to find a plug in location.

There are a few apps to help.  Chargepoint is the main app for me.  There are many places that offer free charging.  Winter Park Florida has many free EV spots throughout the city.  Orlando offers low cost charging. Museums often have free EV spots.

Malls, theme parks, retail locations have charging stations but the cost ends up being more than using the gasoline engine. 

 

  The downside is finding a dealer that can work on the car.  I just had my closest dealer hold the car for two days trying to figure out how to perform a modem firmware update.

Ford Mobile support can give you a list of dealers who can handle EV vehicles in your area.  Evidently my dealer could not and now I need to travel 25 miles to a dealer that can. 



#17 OFFLINE   Blastphemy

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Posted 22 March 2018 - 03:53 PM

There are so many better cars coming out now and in the next year or two, that I wouldn't waste money on a Ford Fusion Energi of any model year.



#18 OFFLINE   4cylinder

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 11:11 AM

There are so many better cars coming out now and in the next year or two, that I wouldn't waste money on a Ford Fusion Energi of any model year.

 

There are indeed many other PHEVs with advantages over the FFE, not just in EV range but also in features, but I'd say the FFE is still a decent buy (especially slightly used due to extreme depreciation) for these reasons:

 

  • It's quite luxurious for the price - you can get nice heated and cooled leather memory seats for the price of a base model BMW 3-series, while also getting pretty much all the safety tech you could ever need (adaptive cruise, BLIS, lane keep, etc). 
  • While the interior is looking a little dated (though still pleasant and functional), the exterior remains a sight to behold (this is very subjective of course)
  • Sync3 is superior to many competing systems. It is baffling that in 2018 there are automakers who continue to refuse to include Android Auto. The lack of AA isn't an absolute dealbreaker for me, but the rest of the car better be really freakin' amazing to make up for it! Btw, if you own a 2013-2016 car and want a flawless Sync3 upgrade without breaking the bank, PM me for advice (you will need to be comfortable using tools).
  • The EV range, while not great by any measure, still dwarfs that of many luxury PHEV sedans like the BMW 530e, BMW 330e, Mercedes C350e, etc. At the 2018 NAIAS I recall seeing a Mercedes GLE plug-in with just 8 miles of EV range... WHY???
  • Fairly reliable in my experience (at least compared to German cars)

If I could go back in time to when I made my purchase of the FFE, I would absolutely do it again - though I would only buy pre-owned of course. If I were rich, I probably wouldn't even be looking at PHEVs - probably at Tesla or at regular hybrid versions of luxury vehicles like the Lexus LS.

 

If your priority is EV range and you're buying brand new, then by all means go for cars like the Chevy Volt or Honda Clarity - I did look at both those cars before buying the FFE and they are fine cars indeed. But they do have their downsides - the Volt is tight and lacks power adjustable memory seats (the latter is a dealbreaker), the Clarity's infotainment system is worse, and so on. 

 

If you just want a nice midsize car for < US$25k, you could do a lot worse than a pre-owned 2017+ FFE :)


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#19 OFFLINE   My14Energi

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 06:36 AM

My dealer has a 2017 Platinum Energi for $24k, only thing holding me back from upgrading is the brown interior and tan seats. Ugly color combo imo. If they offered a Platinum with the same seats in black i'd be on board.

#20 OFFLINE   luckyleo

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Posted 24 March 2018 - 09:28 AM

Lake Wales wiekert Ford has a FFE Platinum. $24k. White Platinum. Medium soft ceramic interior. Under 7k miles. I bought my Titanium there. Nice dealing with a small town dealer.








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