Winter electric range

[cbr954rr]

Man, it’s not even that cold yet here in Ontario and I’ve gone from

Summer 35-37km per charge using AC on low

To

20-22km per charge using heat under 70 degrees and seat warmer

Tempatures around freezing

 

Just awful!!!

[murphy]

When it is below freezing my electric range is cut in half.

[RickEnergi]

We're coming into our first winter with the car and wondering how to adjust things.  Right now, the car is plugged into the wall outlet all night, and has a Go Time set for departure Mon - Fridays.  It's in the garage, and with the outside temps in the high 20s this morning the garage is a hair over 40.

 

Currently, we use EV mode to drive to the highway.  We then switch to EV later for the highway drive, and given that the destination is barely a mile off the highway leave it on that.  On the way home it's reversed, EV later until we get off the highway, then EV mode home.  Usually arrive with about 25 - 30% of the battery remaining.

 

Now that it's colder, my wife (the person driving) has been putting on the heat and using the heated steering wheel and seats.  I've explained that this drains the battery quicker, but she's looking for the simplest way to use the car.  Of course when she puts on the defrost (windows fogging up), the engine is starting and running.  

 

Should she adjust for the winter to using EV later to warm up the engine on the ride to work, and on the way home figure it will warm up before she gets off the highway?  This will leave much more unused battery when she gets home.  

 

We also have an engine block heater (car delivered to Wisconsin).  While somewhat annoying to use (plug on other side of vehicle), and have to figure out the impact on the circuit (same as car charger), at some point it might make sense to run this for an hour or two (I believe max of 3 to get peak heat) on a timer.  Of course if we don't use EV later, then warming the engine has achieved nothing.

 

Just trying to figure out the most efficient use, with the goal of arriving home with the least amount of battery left, but not running out.

[murphy]

Why don't you want to run out of battery?  That is the only way to get the car into hybrid mode.  It's an automatic switch to hybrid.

 

Ask your wife which is more important to her, comfort or efficiency?

 

The phrase "Happy wife, happy life."  applies here.

[RickEnergi]

Comfort wins.

 

Her trip is 3.4 miles local roads, then 6.7 miles on highway at 70mph, then 0.6 miles local roads.  Then reverse on the way home, 1.2 miles local, 6.4 miles highway, and 3.3 miles local.  90% of her days are this, other days have less highway and more local as she runs errands.

 

Here drive to work uses anywhere from roughly 1kWh, and the trip home uses roughly the same.  She found that on the highway, if she was in EV mode and needed to punch it, she didn't want to be messing with telling the car it's ok for the gas engine to kick in, takes her attention from the road.  She's also not going to be switching back and forth repeatedly.  I've pushed the "switch from EV to EV Later when you get on the highway, then same thing on the way home when you get off the highway.  For the short distance on the other end, she' got multiple traffic circles in her 0.6 - 1.2 mile jaunt, and switching back and forth, then remembering to do it after work, just adds to the likelihood that she forgets.  

 

Running out of battery is fine.  Ideally we want to use all of it, because it's cheaper than gas (although our annual projected savings is maybe $200).  But she's not going to be watching bars, checking modes, etc. all the time like I might do.

[jsamp]

Sounds like you are on L1 for charging.  With L2, if you are using "go times" and you set the temp high enough, she could make her commute needing very little heat.  Coming home would be the only issue. 

 

On L1, that won't work since it can't deliver enough juice to get the temp high enough.  I do it on L1 with "remote start" but it drains ~10% off the battery in 15 mins even while plugged in.

 

I pretty much have to have my wife use "auto" mode and let the car make the decisions.  Otherwise she forgets to switch it.

Edited November 12, 2018 at 10:13 PM by jsamp

[ramsdaro]

I live in Southern ontario, woke up this morning to snow on the ground. 

The temp outside is -1 Celsius so 30 Fahrenheit ish.

I park my car in a non insulated garage. It was around 5 Celcius so 40ish Fahrenheit in the garage.

I have go times set up on my Level 1 charger and so far its been nice and warm and has 100% battery when I get in. 

I have wanted to test 4 different climate styles, but just havent gotten around to it. 

1 - no climate use at all

2 - heated seats only

3 - heat only

4 - heated seats and heat

 

As I mentioned the car is heated when I get in, so I start driving with heated seats and no heat. Just turning it on periodically manually. Usually like 10 mins into the trip I find I want it on again. I find this helps drastically. I drive about 30 mins for 20km each way.

I definitely recommend setting up Go Times.

[jsamp]

I forgot about that.  If you are using Go Times the computer will adjust your charging times so that it can divert power to the heater, yet still reach 100% by your go time.  This is true to the extent that it will ignore your "value charge" start time if it thinks it won't be done charging in time to reach your go time.

[RickEnergi]

Our car is plugged in by 3:30 or so.  Value Charge starts at 7PM, finished no later than 12:30AM.  Go Time is 7:05AM so no issues there.  

[Electriffic]

Winter is murder for efficiency. With a charged battery and 19 degrees F my ICE turns on for short trips (cabin heater). On top of that the car is still using the battery for propulsion, so it's a double-hit. I'm seeing about 2.3 miles per kwh now that it's cold. With mixed driving I'm pushing 50mpg. Overall pretty good for a car that's bigger and heavier than a Prius. I admit it makes me angry when my fully-charged FFE fires up the ICE for a two-mile trip. Mpg and miles/kwh will go up significantly when the weather warms up. For comparison my Nissan Leaf can drop down into the 2 miles/kwh range during very cold weather.

[SuPaTooX]

Winter range is reduced, no different than with ICE's.

 

Remeber, the energi does not need to warm up (idle) before you start driving. My Energi has 5500km on the odometer with 4tanks of gas doing mixed driving.

 

Compared to my 1.6 ecoboost escape im laughing.

 

In the summer driving my new car home on the 401 I was able to get 65km in EV mode before the ice kicked in.

 

How???

 

Driving in the fast lane with no traffic and setting the pace @ 130km/h. No AC, or radio had the sun roof open and cruised.

Edited January 23, 2019 at 07:33 PM by SuPaTooX

[Electriffic]

It's been around -15F. At 100% charge I got 6 miles before the battery was depleted and I entered hybrid mode. As is normal in cold weather the ICE fired for at least the first few mins of my trip. Indeed extreme cold is murder for efficiency.

[Energi_916]

It's been around -15F. At 100% charge I got 6 miles before the battery was depleted and I entered hybrid mode. As is normal in cold weather the ICE fired for at least the first few mins of my trip. Indeed extreme cold is murder for efficiency.

Does it get warmer during the day?

 

with that EV range/efficiency aren't you better off using gas?

[jsamp]

Winter range is reduced, no different than with ICE's.

 

Remeber, the energi does not need to warm up (idle) before you start driving. My Energi has 5500km on the odometer with 4tanks of gas doing mixed driving.

 

Compared to my 1.6 ecoboost escape im laughing.

 

In the summer driving my new car home on the 401 I was able to get 65km in EV mode before the ice kicked in.

 

How???

 

Driving in the fast lane with no traffic and setting the pace @ 130km/h. No AC, or radio had the sun roof open and cruised.

 

I wouldn't recommend driving like that very much.  130km/h in EV will murder your battery.  You won't be getting 65km per charge for long at that rate.  Go easy on your battery and it will last a long time.

[jj2me]

jsamp has previously posted C-rating calculations for the Energi's HVB.

 

Your car is rated at 35 all-EV km per full charge.  That's 35 km per 5.6 kWh.  But the battery's full capacity is 7.6 kWh.  Calculating how many km you'd get if you could discharge all 7.6 kWh, it's 47.5.

 

A C-rating of 1 would have you driving at a steady state 47.5 kph.

 

At 130 kph, you're discharging at a C-rating of 2.7.  That's ok in spurts, but likely harmful running at a steady state.

[Energi_916]

jsamp has previously posted C-rating calculations for the Energi's HVB.

 

Your car is rated at 35 all-EV km per full charge.  That's 35 km per 5.6 kWh.  But the battery's full capacity is 7.6 kWh.  Calculating how many km you'd get if you could discharge all 7.6 kWh, it's 47.5.

 

A C-rating of 1 would have you driving at a steady state 47.5 kph.

 

At 130 kph, you're discharging at a C-rating of 2.7.  That's ok in spurts, but likely harmful running at a steady state.

Where is the extra 2 kWh used for? Is it just reserved to keep the battery state of charge at a predetermined minimum level? Or is it reserved for Hybrid use? I assume the battery never gets close to 0 percent state of charge.

 

Winter range is reduced, no different than with ICE's.

I recently read that MPG's hit to ICE's cars in the winter is in the order of 10% to 15% though. For EV, and a PHEV HVB it seems to significantly impact the range way more than 10 to 15 %.

Edited February 12, 2019 at 08:02 PM by Energi_916

[jsamp]

I recently read that MPG's hit to ICE's cars in the winter is in the order of 10% to 15% though. For EV, and a PHEV HVB it seems to significantly impact the range way more than 10 to 15 %.

 

I was literally reading this article right before switching to this forum.  Here's your answer:

https://insideevs.com/ev-hvac-impact-range-extreme-temps/

The range loss due to cold is nearly the same for EVs vs ICEs.  It's the heater use that causes all the extra range loss.

[jsamp]

Where is the extra 2 kWh used for? Is it just reserved to keep the battery state of charge at a predetermined minimum level? Or is it reserved for Hybrid use? I assume the battery never gets close to 0 percent state of charge.

 

 

Yes, there is reserve for both the hybrid use, and to protect the battery.  It is assumed that ~1.4kWh is reserved for hybrid mode, and .5kWh for protection from overcharge/overdraw conditions.  This may be inaccurate due to the fact that the Fusion Hybrid has 1.4kWh battery that INCLUDES buffer for over/undercharge condition.  But it gives a good indication of what that 2kWh is used for.

[murphy]

The battery usage for the Energi 7.6 kWh battery is

 

5.6 kWh electric mode

1.5 kWh hybrid mode

0.5 kWh battery and car protection

 

The engine is started by the HVB.  If the HVB was too low to start the engine the car would be dead.

[jj2me]

I was literally reading this article right before switching to this forum.  Here's your answer:

https://insideevs.com/ev-hvac-impact-range-extreme-temps/

The range loss due to cold is nearly the same for EVs vs ICEs.  It's the heater use that causes all the extra range loss.

 

Ah, that explains how I get such a narrow range of EV miles, winter vs. summer, of 19 to 29, compared to others' reported ranges.  In the winter (there's snow on the ground here now) I'm mostly using only the steering wheel heater.  In the summer I usually have the A/C on.  Maybe I've seen 17 once, but never 30 or more.

Edited February 12, 2019 at 10:36 PM by jj2me

[Energi_916]

I was literally reading this article right before switching to this forum.  Here's your answer:

https://insideevs.com/ev-hvac-impact-range-extreme-temps/

The range loss due to cold is nearly the same for EVs vs ICEs.  It's the heater use that causes all the extra range loss.

This is what I had read: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml

 

Interesting. Honestly I never paid attention to my ICE's reduced efficiency in my winters which are mild compared to other areas. Not sure why but in the new toy I quickly noticed a 14 mile range recently with temps in low 30's vs the 18 I usually got with slightly warmer temps in the 40's to mid 50's.

 

Ah, that explains how I get such a narrow range of EV miles, winter vs. summer, of 19 to 29, compared to others' reported ranges.  In the winter (there's snow on the ground here now) I'm mostly using only the steering wheel heater.  In the summer I usually have the A/C on.  Maybe I've seen 17 once, but never 30 or more.

So 19 is your Winter minimum EV range?

Edited February 13, 2019 at 09:21 PM by Energi_916

[jsamp]

This is what I had read: https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml

 

Interesting. Honestly I never paid attention to my ICE's reduced efficiency in my winters which are mild compared to other areas. Not sure why but in the new toy I quickly noticed a 14 mile range recently with temps in low 30's vs the 18 I usually got with slightly warmer temps in the 40's to mid 50's.

 

 

I wouldn't go by the estimated range as that is just a computer calculation based on recent driving.  It changes every time you drive.

 

That report compares ICE vs Hybrid.  We were comparing ICE vs EV. 

 

It would be interesting to see a larger study that incorporates all 3.  I'm guessing maybe Atkinson cycle engines are more affected by cold than Otto Cycle?  That added to reduced battery performance could make the larger difference.

Edited February 14, 2019 at 01:45 AM by jsamp

[Gkinla]

When deciding to use heat or not, I always think of this picture.

 

[jj2me]

So 19 is your Winter minimum EV range?

 

This year, yes.  It's been one of the mildest winters here, no snow lasted long enough to shovel.

 

Maybe I've seen 17 or 18 last year, I don't remember.  In winter, I'm mostly using EV in city driving, low speeds, traffic lights, not very far distances.  I'm dressed warmly so usually don't feel a need for heat on these short trips other than on my hands.  

 

With jsamp's caveat, I'm just parroting what the display says, I haven't calculated miles driven vs. kWh used.

[Energi_916]

I wouldn't go by the estimated range as that is just a computer calculation based on recent driving.  It changes every time you drive.

Yeah, I knew it was just an estimate directly related to your driving style. In other words a "Guess O Meter"

 

That report compares ICE vs Hybrid.  We were comparing ICE vs EV. 

 

It would be interesting to see a larger study that incorporates all 3.

with increased awareness and availability of PHEV's and EV's, I think it would be great to have this comparison/report done.

 

This year, yes.  It's been one of the mildest winters here, no snow lasted long enough to shovel.

 

Maybe I've seen 17 or 18 last year, I don't remember.  In winter, I'm mostly using EV in city driving, low speeds, traffic lights, not very far distances.  I'm dressed warmly so usually don't feel a need for heat on these short trips other than on my hands.  

 

With jsamp's caveat, I'm just parroting what the display says, I haven't calculated miles driven vs. kWh used.

Still, that is very good even with the caveats of the Guess O Meter.

Edited February 14, 2019 at 08:19 PM by Energi_916