To L2 or not L2 - That is the question

[Marc]

I received my Clipper Creek charger Friday and installed today. I did all the work myself.

That looks nice, great job!

[SteveEnergi]

I don't think anyone ever regrets getting the L2 charger. 

[dnorris78]

I don't regret it at all. It was a pain crawling under the house to run the wire but I like the quick charges. From 0% it is taking 2 hrs and 6 minutes.

[NJguy]

Ordered the LCS-25 Hard Wired and it will be here Friday for my week old Energi.  My panel box is on the opposite side of my driveway so I'll probably have to run 55 to 70ft of wire.  With your experience here can I install 8-2 wire (so I future proof my wire) with the 25amp breaker?  If I cannot readily get a 25amp breaker can I install a 30amp breaker?  If I install the 8-2 I believe I can upgrade to a 40amp later if I ever upgrade.  

 

I was debating on installing outside or inside a mud room. I think I will install in the mudroom but wanted to hear from those of you that have it installed outside (I don't have a garage).  Any issues?  I am getting the holster too.  

 

This car is unbelievably awesome.  Very excited I got this instead of the Fusion Hybryid Titanium.  The price on this was actually less with incentives from Ford and the dealer. Have only seen one on the road here in NNJ so far.  Looking forward to seeing more.  

[jdbob]

If I cannot readily get a 25amp breaker can I install a 30amp breaker?  If I install the 8-2 I believe I can upgrade to a 40amp later if I ever upgrade.  

 

That is a weird current rating. The car is only going to draw 16 amps so you can safely use a 20 amp breaker. 

[murphy]

Breakers are sized to protect the wire.  The load that will be on the wire has no bearing on breaker selection.  It is okay to install a smaller breaker but it is never okay to install a larger breaker.

 

The following assumes copper wire.

 

14 gauge wire - 15 amp breaker

12 gauge wire - 20 amp breaker

10 gauge wire - 30 amp breaker

  8 gauge wire - 40 amp breaker

  6 gauge wire - 50 amp breaker

 

There is more information in the following document.

 

http://www.usawire-cable.com/pdfs/NEC%20AMPACITIES.pdf

 

If the wire is installed outside it must be rated for outside use.

[NJguy]

Breakers are sized to protect the wire.  The load that will be on the wire has no bearing on breaker selection.  It is okay to install a smaller breaker but it is never okay to install a larger breaker.

 

The following assumes copper wire.

 

14 gauge wire - 15 amp breaker

12 gauge wire - 20 amp breaker

10 gauge wire - 30 amp breaker

  8 gauge wire - 40 amp breaker

  6 gauge wire - 50 amp breaker

 

There is more information in the following document.

 

http://www.usawire-cable.com/pdfs/NEC%20AMPACITIES.pdf

 

If the wire is installed outside it must be rated for outside use.

Thanks murphy.  I was thinking that but wasn't sure.  Electrician will be here Tuesday.  CC should be here by Friday.  I want to get electric run because it is a long run (or at least I think it is).  So 8-2 it is then.  Believe it or not Lowes (in NJ) has the 8-2 on sale for $1.27/ft compared to the 10-2 at $1.50 per foot so I thought it would be smart to do 8-2 if I could put the 25 or 30amp breaker.  Noticed that Lowes has a SquareD Homeline 25amp double pole breaker in stock so I should be good with that.  Thanks for the help.  Really enjoy looking at pics of the different setups people have.  I'll be sure to post mine too when it goes up.  

[NJguy]

That is a weird current rating. The car is only going to draw 16 amps so you can safely use a 20 amp breaker. 

I hear you jdbob but the manual says to use a 25amp breaker which is why I wasn't thinking of putting in a 20amp breaker.

 

I know it's drawing less, which is why I went with the CC LCS 4.8KWH instead of the HCS 7.2KWH.  LCS was $100 less and, like others, I intend to keep this car for 5 to 7 years so getting bigger didn't make sense at this point.  

Edited June 8, 2014 at 01:36 PM by NJguy

[jdbob]

Like Murphy says, it's safe to go to a smaller breaker. I don't know why CC decided on such a weird current rating, seems like some sort of marketing BS rather than sound engineering. Would make more sense to base current capacity on common breaker sizes and wire sizes. I decided on 10 gauge wire and a 30 amp breaker for mine so the rated current works out to 80-% of 30A = 24 amps.

 

Maybe CC got a really good deal on whatever the metric equivalent of 11 gauge wire is for the cable :)

[NJguy]

I decided on 10 gauge wire and a 30 amp breaker for mine so the rated current works out to 80-% of 30A = 24 amps.

 

Maybe CC got a really good deal on whatever the metric equivalent of 11 gauge wire is for the cable :)

 

So if I ever intend to get a plug installed onto the end of this LCS-25 I would be ok getting the 30amp breaker now (instead of the 25amp breaker?).  If it doesn't make a difference maybe I'll just do what you did and get the 30amp breaker but still getting the 8-2 wire since it doesn't make a difference to have higher rated wire with lower amps (and the cost is cheaper  :) Score on that one).  Also, looks like it's approximately an 85 foot run.  Does it matter that it is that long of a run?  Driveway is on exact opposite side of the panel.  Thanks for all the help people.  Really appreciate the conversation.  

Edited June 12, 2014 at 03:38 PM by NJguy

[murphy]

As long as the run is under 100 feet no increase in wire size is needed.  If you are doing the wiring yourself buy a roll of red electrical tape and wrap the white wire with red tape, at both ends of the cable, to completely cover the exposed white insulation.  This warns the next guy that opens the panel or receptacle that it is a hot wire and not a neutral.

[cwstnsko]

Any fearss I had about regretting the $$$ I spent on my LCS-25P vanished the morning after I installed it, when I came out to the car at my Go-time and felt the difference in how well the preconditioning worked on the L2 EVSE vs. the L1.

 

Clipper Creek now has the LCS-20 at $395 which will run off a 140V-20amp circuit (12 gauge wire), delivering a charging current of 15A or 3.6kW  which is enough to fully saturate the 3.3kW on-board charger of the Fusion Energi, delivering the fastest charge time possible.  Bigger EVSEs would be fine for future-proofing your installation to some degree, but the Fusion Energi does not use the extra power.

 

Since I am driving a Focus Electric with 6.6kW on-board charger, the real debate for me was before I placed the order.  I had a 50 amp plug free and the HCS-40 was not too much more $$ than the LCS-25P.  I opted for the LCS-25P in favor of portability over the slightly faster charge time of the HCS-40. 

[FrostFire]

I would be too worried about something happening to my charger to get the extra 20 miles/day... would not be worth it for me. One of the things I love about this car is how even when it does not have a charge in the battery, it still gets great mileage in hybrid mode.

 

This is my current dilemma, I don't really need a L2 charger with my driving patterns and love the portability of the L1, but I'm getting worried about damage or theft.  Is there a good replacement L1 charger on the market?

 

I want something that goes into a standard grounded household outlet and all I see is the CC PCS-15, which is still listed at $495... $100 more than a basic L2.

Edited June 26, 2014 at 10:31 PM by FrostFire

[Joatnm]

Has anyone here tried or own a JuiceBox L2 charger? I like that they are opensource and the top model fully assembled is about half the cost of Ford's L2 charger. It can charge up to 60A which is more than enough to max out the Energi's charging capacity. I was wondering if anyone here had experience with them?

 

http://bit.ly/JuiceL2

[Eric4539]

For anyone that might want an extra L1 charger, I saw this on eBay, and if you can get it for $200 I think it would be a good price for a spare charger.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-Cmax-Fusion-Focus-120v-Electric-Battery-Car-Charger-Spare-Cable-OEM-NEW-/251633051683?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a967fa823&vxp=mtr

[HotLap]

It's up to you, but after installing my new Clipper Creek HCS-40P last Friday, I'm never going back to the Level 1.  Just so much more convenient to be able to come back up to a full charge in between running errands around town where gas mileage tends to be the worst.  With the Level 1, I found by early afternoon I was just about out of charge, even though I was plugging in between local trips.  I paid an electrician $300.00 to run the required 50 amp breakers, and I had him run everything inside the walls...kind of picky but I don't like the look of conduit running over the walls unless absolutely necessary :)  I'm having solar installed this week and my solar guys were able to run everything inside the walls with the exception of one 8' conduit run coming down from the 2nd story roof on the back side of the house.  Oh, and I had Clipper Creek install the standard electric dryer plug (the most common one) and my electrician install a matching receptacle so I can unplug in case I ever want to move it or take with me...not sure I will but it wasn't much added cost and nice to have the choice.  Funny how driving my Energi has me thinking of things in an ROI mode more and more, but sometimes even if you can justify the cost with a decent ROI, the convenience and time savings are worth it.  Good Luck with your decision!

[pioneer11]

It is hard to make economic sense for an L2 over the standard equipment L1.  Let’s take a look at a probable best case scenario.

 

Setting the basic parameters, assume a driver makes 2 round trips of 20 miles each work day with sufficient time between trips to fully recharge on a L2.  He will drive 40 miles per work day, all on electricity if he has L2 charging.

 

Take the same scenario but with L1 charging.  He will get about half a charge in the same time, meaning that he will get 30 miles on electricity and 10 miles on gas.

 

Fixing the variables:

Electric range- 20 miles

Electric efficiency- 38 kWh/100 miles (ref. EPA)

Charging efficiency 70% for the L1 and 80% for the L2

Cost of electricity- $0.10/kWh

Gas mileage- 38 mpg (ref. EPA)

Cost of gas- $3.00/gallon

L2 cost- $495 (from an earlier post, assumes he has an existing 240v supply available)

 

Assume he makes these trips 5 days/week and 48 weeks/year (4 weeks for vacation, holidays etc.).  That’s 240 days per year.

 

The driver with the L1 will spend about $1.90 per day combined on electricity and gas.

The driver with the L2 will spend about $1.40 per day on electricity, saving $0.50/day or $120/year.

 

This scenario pays out in just over 4 years.  Is that good enough?  It depends on your motivations.  Most business investment decisions require a 3 year or better payout.  Some of you will think a 4 year payout is good enough.  I don’t.

 

If you are on a 3 year lease or intend to keep your car less than 4 years this makes no economic sense.  If you are going to keep your car longer than 4 years or expect to replace it down the road with another plug in it starts to make economic sense.

 

Keep in mind this scenario does not include a cost for upgrading your location to install a 240v supply.  If this costs $500, the payout doubles to 8 years.  If $1000 it triples to 12 years.

 

Of course, your mileage may vary, void where prohibited etc.  And, if your motivation is to minimize your gas usage, go for it.

 

I have some more thoughts on this (for another post, this one is long enough).

[Doug0716]

Fixing the variables:

Electric range- 20 miles

Electric efficiency- 38 kWh/100 miles (ref. EPA)

Charging efficiency 70% for the L1 and 80% for the L2

Cost of electricity- $0.10/kWh

Gas mileage- 38 mpg (ref. EPA)

Cost of gas- $3.00/gallon

L2 cost- $495 (from an earlier post, assumes he has an existing 240v supply available)

Did you account for efficiency differnces?  It is my understanding that the L1 charger will cost about 10-15% more in electricity costs due to lower efficency.

 

Calculating at 12.5% (and using your base 1.90 and 1.40 calculations) that puts your L1+Gas at $2.075/day giving the L2 charger a savings of 0.675 per day and about $162/yr and $486 after 3 years which puts you pretty close to your 3 year ROI.

 

I'm not sure what the pre-conditioning costs differences would be since the L2 works significantly better it may actually use more electricity, but that would also be an additional benefit, so I'm assuming this isn't used for simplicity.

 

Of course this is all going off of efficiency numbers that I read somewhere at some point in time, I don't know the actual numbers for the Fusion and I'm sure it varies a bit per charger but if anybody has a better real life efficiency number feel free to weigh in.

Edited March 14, 2015 at 04:28 AM by Doug0716

[pioneer11]

Did you account for efficiency differnces?  It is my understanding that the L1 charger will cost about 10-15% more in electricity costs due to lower efficency.

 

Calculating at 12.5% (and using your base 1.90 and 1.40 calculations) that puts your L1+Gas at $2.075/day giving the L2 charger a savings of 0.675 per day and about $162/yr and $486 after 3 years which puts you pretty close to your 3 year ROI.

 

I'm not sure what the pre-conditioning costs differences would be since the L2 works significantly better it may actually use more electricity, but that would also be an additional benefit, so I'm assuming this isn't used for simplicity.

 

Of course this is all going off of efficiency numbers that I read somewhere at some point in time, I don't know the actual numbers for the Fusion and I'm sure it varies a bit per charger but if anybody has a better real life efficiency number feel free to weigh in.

Yes, I included charging efficiency.  See where I wrote in my post:

 

Charging efficiency 70% for the L1 and 80% for the L2

In your calculation you double dipped on charging efficiency.

 

I didn't consider preconditioning in the scenario.  If you like a warm and toasty car in the winter it will favor the L2.

[larryh]

You don't have the best case scenario.  My electric company offers a $500 rebate for installing an EVSE.  Furthermore, the rate from the electric company is as low as $0.04/kWh (vs the normal $0.12/kWh) if you install a separately metered EVSE.  In addition, at least in the past, you have been able to get a tax credit for installing an EVSE. 

[pioneer11]

You don't have the best case scenario.  My electric company offers a $500 rebate for installing an EVSE.  Furthermore, the rate from the electric company is as low as $0.04/kWh (vs the normal $0.12/kWh) if you install a separately metered EVSE.  In addition, at least in the past, you have been able to get a tax credit for installing an EVSE. 

What is the cost of installing a separately metered EVSE?

 

Actually, the best scenario is when my rich uncle pays for my L2 and the electric bill.

Edited March 14, 2015 at 11:18 PM by pioneer11

[Doug0716]

Yes, I included charging efficiency.  See where I wrote in my post:

In your calculation you double dipped on charging efficiency.

 

I didn't consider preconditioning in the scenario.  If you like a warm and toasty car in the winter it will favor the L2.

Man, I don't know how I didn't see it... I'm going to blame it on the fact that it has been a long work week and I'm not feeling well. :-X

 

In my case, I went w/ L2 for pre-conditioning, but the federal tax credit and already having a 240V in my garage helped with the cost justification :)

[larryh]

It cost me $70 for the meter socket and $130 for the electrician to install it.

[pioneer11]

Man, I don't know how I didn't see it... I'm going to blame it on the fact that it has been a long work week and I'm not feeling well. :-X

 

In my case, I went w/ L2 for pre-conditioning, but the federal tax credit and already having a 240V in my garage helped with the cost justification :)

For sure, having 240 available in the garage is huge.

[Hybridbear]

L2 isn't about cost savings, it's about preconditioning. Last weekend I was able to volunteer at the Twin Cities Auto Show at the EV display to promote EVs. When talking with people interested in PHEVs, many asked about 240V charging. I told them that it isn't necessary, but it's a convenience factor. Particularly in MN, it's nice to get into a warm car in the winter. That will never happen on L1 charging. L2 should allow you to use more electricity and less gas, but I doubt it would ever pay for itself.