Best Energi HVB battery replacement options or experiences?

[ma fus1on]

Hi all,

 

We have a 2013 Energi with 121k and I'd love to hear any suggestions or experiences you have with HV battery replacement.  Here's what I've found so far:

 

• Battery sellers and installers:
  • BestHybridBatteries (no batteries in stock but provide "easy" DIY instructions with purchase?)
  • Greentec (only hybrid, not energi batteries?)
  • Green Bean (no Ford batteries)
  • Others?
• Other used battery options: (all should be tested or warranted)
  • eBay (full packs or individual battery cells)
  • Major online parts dealers
  • Junkyards

 

So far I've found almost nothing about anyone successfully getting or installing an energi battery in a Fusion or C-Max. 

I understand that the batteries are expensive and DIY work is very dangerous without proper insulation. But there must be other people/shops that could test or replace cells?

 

(Thanks and apologies if this is covered in other posts!)

[jsamp]

First off, how bad is your battery?  Is is dead/not working?  If working, have you done the kWh test to see how degraded it is?  I've only ever heard of one replacement and that was a warranty issue on a C-Max energi.

 

Some places that offer HV batteries for some makes can do a refurbish on other models.  You may want to contact Greentec or others to see if they are willing to do it.  Greentec had indicated they were going to add energi batteries to their list, but never did.  Since they do the 2013 fusion hybrid, they know the design.  I'm sure it's the same process, just more cells. 

 

There's always the Ford dealer option, but the battery alone is north of $6k last I checked (plus installation).

 

Good luck.

 

 

[ma fus1on]

Hi jsamp - I'll check out Greentec.

I'm looking ahead a bit because I like this car and I'd like to support the battery refurbishment industry if it comes to that. 

 

I'd say the battery is passable.  I can get 8-12 miles EV with careful driving and minimum accessories. However, it has blinked a couple of times - once the car stopped using the battery completely and another time it lost charge too quickly.

 

To preserve the battery I'm treating it like my phone -

• generally keeping the total battery charge around 50% SOC (total capacity, which I think is now around 25% on the EV percentage gauge),
• not charging above or below 30%/70% (0% to 60% on the EV gauge)
• not using fast chargers often
• and running the engine with "EV later" when using air conditioning and heat.

 

[jj2me]

On 3/23/2023 at 6:58 AM, ma fus1on said:

• generally keeping the total battery charge around 50% SOC (total capacity, which I think is now around 25% on the EV percentage gauge),
• not charging above or below 30%/70% (0% to 60% on the EV gauge)

 

 

I may not be understanding those figures of 0%, 60%, and 25%.  If I understand what you're saying, it's that you want to keep your battery charge between 30% and 70% of real capacity, generally centering on 50%, which would be
 .3 x 7.6 kWh = 2.28 kWh

 .7 x 7.6 kWh = 5.32 kWh
 .5 x 7.6 kWh = 3.8 kWh

 

The dash display and SoC PID both read 0% at 1.5 kWh or less and 100% at 7.1 kWh (car protects from charge level being more than 7.1 kWh by enforcing a 0.5 kWh safety buffer).

 

Assuming the increments in percentage on the dash display/PID are linear wrt kWh, then each percentage point = .056 kWh (5.6 kWh/100).

The 30% real of 2.28 kWh has a corresponding dash display of 14% ( (2.28 - 1.5) / .056 ).
The 70% real of 5.32 kWh has a corresponding dash display of 68% ( (5.32 - 1.5) / .056 ).

The 50% real of 3.8 kWh has a corresponding dash display of 41% ( (3.8 - 1.5) / .056 ).

 

My 2017 dashboard display doesn't show percentage of charge except upon startup.  To get a constant reading I need to plug in an OBDII dongle and monitor the SoC PID.

[theterminator93]

You can see HVB SoC in the "Charge Settings" section of the vehicle settings tab on the touchscreen.

[jj2me]

On 3/27/2023 at 8:41 AM, theterminator93 said:

You can see HVB SoC in the "Charge Settings" section of the vehicle settings tab on the touchscreen.

 

Thanks much. I must have mentally written off that screen due to never using value charging (it's an outdoor car).

[ma fus1on]

On 3/26/2023 at 9:13 PM, jj2me said:

 

If I understand what you're saying, it's that you want to keep your battery charge between 30% and 70% of real capacity, generally centering on 50%, which would be
 .3 x 7.6 kWh = 2.28 kWh

 .7 x 7.6 kWh = 5.32 kWh
 .5 x 7.6 kWh = 3.8 kWh

 

The dash display and SoC PID both read 0% at 1.5 kWh or less and 100% at 7.1 kWh (car protects from charge level being more than 7.1 kWh by enforcing a 0.5 kWh safety buffer).

 

Yeah, your numbers are probably accurate for a newer (non-degraded) battery. 

I estimate that my 2013 Fusion only has 3.6 kW available in EV mode (rather than 5.6 kW when new) based on the 4.6 kW used to fully charge the EV mode 0% to 100% at the outlet (with ~30% lost in conversion).
 

I’m also assuming the system allocates my total battery kW this way: 

 

0.25  Discharge protection

1.5   Hybrid mode

3.6  EV mode “0% to 100%” (5.6 kW when new)

0.25  Overcharge protection 

—————-

5.6  my total battery kW

~30% = 1.75 kW = 0% EV mode gauge 

~50% = 2.8 kW = 30% EV mode

~70% = 3.9 kW = 60% EV mode

 

If that seems wrong to anyone I’m all ears. 

[jsamp]

Not that I have any proof, but I think your numbers are a bit too generous.  I suspect that Ford keeps the .5kWh at the top end and ~.5kWh at the bottom end as constants, no matter how degraded your battery is.  Also, .5 at the bottom end is included in the hybrid mode portion, so the "useable" hybrid portion is only ~1.0kWh.  So your battery is:

.5kWh top end protection

3.6kWh useable for EV mode

1.5kWh Hybrid mode (includes bottom end protection)

-------

5.6kWh total

 

Part of what confirms my estimates is that the 2019 and newer have a 9.0kWh battery (1.4kWh bigger) and the EV range increased by precisely 1.4/5.6 (went from 20 miles to 25 miles).  They kept the same .5kWh buffer at each end. 

[theterminator93]

I've observed that I can usually get ~2 miles from 100% hybrid mode before it depletes to ~25-30% and the ICE turns on. I am usually able to get about 4.5-5 miles on 1 kWh, so it would seem that only .5 kWh is "available" for hybrid mode... at least in my case.

[jsamp]

Yes, I've noticed this as well.  I think that the bottom end is more like .75kWh rather than .5, but it fluctuates so much it can be the equivalent of .5kWh.  What I mean is, I can get home and turn off the car with it showing a little less than 50% on the hybrid battery.  A few hours later at night when it's much colder I go out and start the car and it shows it's at ~20%.  Nothing has changed but the temperature.  It's all a guessing game by the computer anyway, but it seems there is more than .5kWh buffer at the bottom, meaning you don't have as much available in hybrid mode.

[jj2me]

1.1 kWh and the smaller hybrid battery icon showing about 1/3 full was the lowest I had observed on a long stretch in hybrid mode. At that point, the FFE would replenish the HVB a bit via the ICE. The 1.1 kWh was according to PID BAT_TO_EMPTY_ESTIM.  That was with a very good HVB with 5.5 kWh usable.

[jj2me]

On 3/27/2023 at 11:00 PM, ma fus1on said:

Yeah, your numbers are probably accurate for a newer (non-degraded) battery. 

I estimate that my 2013 Fusion only has 3.6 kW available in EV mode

 

Good point. My bad, failed to think of that.

 

Recalculating, using jsamp's figures and your 5.6 kWh total real capacity, I get:

30% (5.6) real = 3.5% dash

50% (5.6) real = 36% dash

70% (5.6) real = 67% dash

 

 

[jagplates]

I am in a similar situation to ma fus1on.  I have a 2013 Energi with only 34,000 miles. The car is in perfect condition, except that the range, which was 21 - 22 miles when new, dropped to 13 (from 17) since last year.  I had been tracking the price of new batteries from Ford.  At $9,500 for a new one, I was prepared to swallow hard and buy one when I finally needed it, simply because you could not buy a 34,000 mile car with a brand new HV battery for that price.  When I checked a few months ago, Ford has stopped selling new batteries and now sell "remanufactured" ones for over $10,000. If "remanufactured" means that every cell is new, it could still be worth $10,000. But, if like every other hybrid battery rebuilder that I have encountered, all they do is replace the bad cells and  leave  the remaining cells, then you can expect the remaining cells to degrade in the next few years, so you would not get another 10 years out of a remanufactured battery.  I have gotten different answers from different sources, ranging from "every cell is new" to "they only replace the bad cells". (To make matters worse, Ford dealer says the remaufactured batteries are out of stock with no information on when they would be available.)

 

My thinking was to get the newest one I could find from a wrecking yard ($2,000 - $2,500). If that gets me five more years, it is a much better value than a $10,000 reman with a one year warranty and some cells that could already be 10 years old.  When they were selling new ones, Ford listed one part number for 2013 - 2018 and another part number for 2019-2020. Now, the remanufactured batteries list one part number for all years. A place in Illinois called Best Hybrid Batteries offers a reconditioned battery (currently $5,000) and for an extra $1,000, they will sell you one with the later, higher capacity cells. https://www.besthybridbatteries.com/categories/hybrid-batteries-by-make/ford/fusion.  Ford says that if you change the BECM, you have to redo the software and Best Hybrid Batteries says you can avoid that by moving your existing BECM to the new battery. But it is not clear whether or not that would work properly if you went for the newer type cells. (Given that Ford sells one part number for all years now, it must be possible to reprogram the old BECM to support the new style batteries, but you may need to tow the car to the dealer to do it.)

 

The questions I am wrestling with are: How long can a used HV battery sit on a warehouse shelf before it suffers long-term damage?  If the charge dropped too low, how do you recharge it? One auto tech instructor that I spoke with was saying "Oh, used HV batteries are dangerous. You don't know how it was handled by the wrecking yard staff. If they banged it around, it could catch fire." I am thinking that is not impossible, but also not likely. Seems like, if they banged it around and it was going to catch fire, it would do so within a couple of hours of being damaged.

 

What are your thoughts?

Edited May 19, 2023 at 06:19 PM by jagplates
Remove inaccurate information and expand on the subject.

[jsamp]

I doubt you'll find one in a wrecking yard.  I think they have to pull the battery out before putting the vehicle in a yard because you can electrocute yourself if you do not know what you are doing.  Maybe they have it separate but I suspect that the batteries are sold off to certain companies who have a standing order to purchase any and all hybrid batteries, either for rebuilding or parting off as home battery backup units.

 

I don't know if they actually have one, but this place lists the older part number for $5500:

https://www.fordpartsgiant.com/parts/ford-battery_hg9z-10b759-e.html?vin=&make=Ford&model=Fusion&year=2015&submodel=&extra1=&extra2=&filter=(49839)

Edited May 24, 2023 at 05:36 AM by jsamp

[Spiffster]

Anyone know where you can get new individual cells, would it be very difficult to replace the cells yourself? Looks like they are Panasonic Prismatic Cells 3.7V 5AH like these: https://jag35.com/products/c-max-hybrid-fusion-batteries-panasonic-lithium-cells-3-7v-5ah but sold out. Not even sure how many you would need.

[jsamp]

On 5/10/2023 at 10:24 AM, jagplates said:

I am in a similar situation to ma fus1on.  I have a 2013 Energi with only 34,000 miles. The car is in perfect condition, except that the range, which was 21 - 22 miles when new, dropped to 13 (from 17) since last year.  I had been tracking the price of new batteries from Ford.  At $9,500 for a new one, I was prepared to swallow hard and buy one when I finally needed it, simply because you could not buy a 34,000 mile car with a brand new HV battery for that price.  When I checked a few months ago, Ford has stopped selling new batteries and now sell "remanufactured" ones for over $10,000....

 

Just noticed that these guys have the 7.6 kWh battery listed as "in stock" for $5k.  I assume it is refurbished.

 

https://www.besthybridbatteries.com/products/ford-c-max-energi-2013-2018-plug-in-hybrid-battery

[jagplates]

I see that Ford has dropped the price of the Energi battery from >$10,000 for a refurb to $7,500 for what they list as "new" (Dec 2023). If that's true, I am tempted to get one now before they disappear again. What puzzles me is that part # HG9Z-10B759-F is described as "new" and they say it fits 2013-2019 for a list price of $7,500, while HG9Z-10B759-FARM is described as refurbished with a list price of $4,296.97 and on one page, it says it fits 2013-2020 but lower down it says "Fusion. Without plug-in model. Energi high voltage from 04/06/2015." That is 3 different contradictory fitments. If it is not for plug-in, it does not fit Energi.  If it fits a 2015, it should fit a 2013.

Edited December 30, 2023 at 09:40 PM by jagplates
Remove inaccurate information

[jsamp]

Yeah, I noticed that contradiction before.  I think the "without plug-in model" is a copy-and-paste error.  It can't be both the Energi and without plug-in.  The HG9Z-10B759-FARM is the 7.6kWh refurb model for the Energi.  It wouldn't be correct for a 2019-2020 though as they were the 9.0kWh version (unless you wanted a downgrade).  The big question is do they actually have any available?  With the 2019-2020 recall battery fix still ~1 year away, I'm doubting it.