12 Volt Battery Test

[mczajka]

After 2 days of additional draw testing, they are finally going to replace the battery. I'm kinda surprised that they didn't do this earlier because it is probably one of the least expensive parts in the entire chain of things that could go wrong.

[jeff_h]

After 2 days of additional draw testing, they are finally going to replace the battery. I'm kinda surprised that they didn't do this earlier because it is probably one of the least expensive parts in the entire chain of things that could go wrong.

 

And I would think it's probably quickest to replace in the way of labor hours too... did you say that a Ford field engineer came out to the dealer?  Seems like they would replace the battery before sending out a person, but who knows how their checklist protocol runs. 

 

So will they replace it and give to you to try out, or drive it around the dealer and then let it sit to see if it seems OK over a day or two?

Edited July 26, 2013 at 12:34 PM by jeff_h

[mczajka]

I don't think a Ford field engineer ever came out, but they were back and forth on the phone with them. No, they're going to turn it back over to me after doing some tests today. We shall see.

[rtshinn]

Maybe they wanted to learn something for future reference.

[larryh]

I let the car sit two days after charging on Friday morning.  The 12 V battery was down to 12.45 V on Sunday from 12.65 V when fully charged.   The HV battery was at 100% charge.  I plugged in the charger.  The charging ring turned on for about a minute and then turned off.  I observed that the charger drawing 160 watts of electricy and slowly ramping down to 60 watts.  It was apparently topping off the HV battery and charging the 12 V battery.  The voltage on the battery monitor was at 14.45 V.  After about two hours, charging stopped.  The 12 V battery is now at 12.85 V.  So apparently, even if the HV battery is fully charged, the car will charge up the 12 V battery when plugged in.  

 

However, I doubt that once charging stops and all the electronics in the car for charging turn off that they would ever turn back on again without some sort of trigger.  Plugging the car in (or turning on power to the charger with the car plugged in) and starting the car are the only triggers that I know of.  I don't know if GO times would trigger the charger to begin charging the 12 V battery if the charge was low. 

 

SYNC has the capability to install downloadable apps.  I wish someone would come up with some apps that we could install to better control charging of the car and monitor what is going on.  For instance, it would be nice to have an app that displays the temperature of the HV battery.

Edited July 29, 2013 at 08:30 PM by larryh

[Andre07]

Very strange that there appears to be no Labelling on the 12 Volt Battery.

 

Would be great if someone could try to access this Battery, take Photos of it and post them.  Also posted the Dimensions of this Battery.

 

On a Side note:

 

The Cold Cranking Amps of a Battery at 0'F is usually 80% of Cranking above 32'F.

 

So if the Battery on the Energi or Hybrids are rated at 390 CCA  it should then be rated at around 490 Amps.  Problem is hoiwever what the reserve Capacity might be.

 

Most of the ones I have looked into on the Tables posted earlier do vary from from 60 Minutes to 100 Minutes but it seems like these batteries may have a capacity much less than 60 Minutes.

 

Wonder why no one at Ford can offer any information on this.

[murphy]

Very strange that there appears to be no Labelling on the 12 Volt Battery.

 

Most of the ones I have looked into on the Tables posted earlier do vary from from 60 Minutes to 100 Minutes but it seems like these batteries may have a capacity much less than 60 Minutes.

 

Wonder why no one at Ford can offer any information on this.

 

Because it's a Ford proprietary battery as was the one in my 2010 Hybrid.

The battery is not available from any other battery manufacturer.

It does not appear in the BCI chart.

 

http://www.rtpnet.org/~teaa/bcigroup.html

 

Group 99 but not 99R appears in the following chart.

 

http://www.batteryweb.com/bci.cfm

 

The 99 and 99R should be the same physical size since the R means the positive terminal is on the right side of the battery but no electrical specs are given.

 

CCA is a meaningless specification for a battery that is not used as a "starter" battery.

 

This car has no need for the 12 volt battery to provide 10 seconds of over 100 amperes since there is no starter motor in the car.

 

It needs a deep cycle battery that maintains its voltage until it is almost completely discharged and can be recharged without damage to the battery.

 

"Starter" batteries are quite often destroyed by completely discharging them.

[mczajka]

murphy, many of my EV friends say the same things you are saying. They've experienced similar problems with other early hybrid and EV models.

 

I'm finally back on the road. The big test will be when I go on vacation and the car sits for 6 days, but I do have a battery jump device now.

[Eric4539]

I really appreciate all the information about the 12V battery.  I travel at least once a month for business and the car sits for 4 1/2 days at an off site parking facility.  I don't know if the attendants shuffle the cars around, and if they do how often they do that.

 

Once every 3 or 4 months I have a trip where the car sits for 10 days.

 

I owned a 2008 Nissan Altima Hybrid and traveled more often and left the car at the parking facility every time, sometimes up to 14 days.  Not once did the Altima fail to start.

 

I had to use the Roadside Assistance once to jump the Energi.  They were at the car within 20 minutes.  I suppose we could all become very good friends with the Roadside Assistance crew if our Energi batteries are dead at airports across the country!

[Andre07]

CCA is a meaningless specification for a battery that is not used as a "starter" battery.

 

This car has no need for the 12 volt battery to provide 10 seconds of over 100 amperes since there is no starter motor in the car.

 

It needs a deep cycle battery that maintains its voltage until it is almost completely discharged and can be recharged without damage to the battery.

 

"Starter" batteries are quite often destroyed by completely discharging them.

Just trying to get as much info as possible on what the Ford ppl are doing on these Hydrids.  I have never owned or driven one so am still clueless on it's Operation.

 

My understanding is once the HVB is depleted or the user chooses to use the Hybrid Mode, the ICE needs to be started.

 

I was under the impression from all I have been reading and the various Youtube Videos I have viewed that the Engine is started for ICE Propulsion.

 

I am familiar with some Internal Combustion Engines being started without a starter but they still need a Starting Coil in the DC Circuit Portion or a ICE/Generator coupled System to allow turning of the ICE to start the ICE.

 

Is there any information on this site pertaining to how the 2.0L iVTV Atkinson Engine being used on the Ford Hybrid is started?

 

Thanks for for all your valued info murphy.

[murphy]

The ICE is started by the HVB.  HVB depletion does not mean that the portion of the HVB reserved for hybrid operation is depleted.  They will not allow that to happen.  If the hybrid portion gets to the low trip point the ICE is started to recharge the hybrid battery.  One of the MG sets is used to turn the ICE.  I don't remember which one is used.

[Russael]

This is a good little article that shows how the eCVT works:  http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

 

The ICE is started by the electric traction motor (it serves 3 purposes - propel the vehicle, generator for charging the battery and running accessories, and also starting the ICE).  There is a second electric motor in the eCVT that helps control how the ICE interacts with the drivetrain.

 

All the 12 volt system does is power 12 volt accessories, such as the climate fan blower, power windows, the stereo system, instrument cluster, lights, the radiator fan, etc.  The car does contain a DC to DC converter to go from 300 volts to 12 volts, which acts as an alternator of sorts to power and charge the 12 volt system.  Problem is, the car apparently has so many parasitic draws that it kills the 12v system after x number of days while it is off and not started, run, or plugged in.  When the car is off, the DC to DC converter is also off and disconnected.

 

I haven't had any issues since my car remains plugged in while it's home (and I've had it sit 5 days between trips since I'm working from home presently). 

[TX NRG]

FWIW, my car sat unplugged and unused for over 9 days without any issues.

[mczajka]

My car has sat a few days now with no problems. So, it was probably a defective battery. Of course as soon as I say this...well you know what could happen.

 

I have not connected the phone to it or used the MFM app. Frankly, I'm afraid to now, although it shouldn't be a problem when the car is plugged in.

 

It's possible my battery was defective and the heat brought on all these problems. I didn't constantly keep the car plugged in because I don't like to charge it during the day in the extreme heat of my garage. I finally got the delayed charging working, but that limits you to start at midnight. I would prefer 3 AM.

 

TX NRG...do you work for NRG in Texas? I've linked up with some great people in Maryland and they are putting a Level 3 about 7 miles from my house.

[larryh]

For help on setting up your home value charge profile, you can read my post at:  http://www.fordfusionenergiforum.com/topic/1016-new-myford-mobile-release/?p=4991.

 

You would want to set a value charge window from 3:00 am to 6:00 am (assuming you can charge in 3 hours).  The window must have the highest priority (lowest cost).  You are stuck with four other windows.   Each must have a different priority (cost) and the priority must be lower (cost must be higher) than the 3:00 am window.  You then have to set up a go time for when you wish to leave in the morning. 

 

The car is connecting to MFM every time you turn the car on/off or start/finish charging.  The MFM app itself connects to Ford's cloud servers.  It should not initiate any communication with the car unless you press the update button or change settings.  Whenever the car is plugged in and before charging completes, it has the capability to charge the 12 V battery.  So you should be able to change settings and press the update button any time before the HVB charging completes without depleting the 12 V battery.   Note that the 12 V battery is also charged, if necessary, when value charge is selected and the car is awaiting the value charge time at which to start charging.  So you don't have to wait until 3:00 am to connect.

Edited August 1, 2013 at 10:07 PM by larryh

[murphy]

When I start the Android app on my Samsung Galaxy S II it immediately contacts the car for an update.

Connecting to the website also immediately contacts the car for an update.  The update button does not appear until after the update is complete.

[larryh]

When I start the Android app on my Samsung Galaxy S II it immediately contacts the car for an update.

Connecting to the website also immediately contacts the car for an update.  The update button does not appear until after the update is complete.

You observe that MFM contacts the car for an update when you log onto the web site?   I have never observed MFM connecting to the car for an update when I log onto the website.  The update button is immediately available to be pressed.  When I press the update button or change settings, I can clearly observe the voltage dropping on the battery monitor when the phone contacts Ford's cloud servers.  But I don't see that when I log on.  Also, the battery icon at MFM shows when it has been last updated.  Does yours always show 0 minutes when your first log on?  Mine usually shows many hours have passed.

Edited August 1, 2013 at 11:14 PM by larryh

[murphy]

When I log into the web site there is no update button there.

About 30 seconds later the update button shows up with the phrase "Updated less than a minute ago"

 

When I log into the app I get the spinning wheel and eventually the Update button shows up with the phrase "Updated a few seconds ago"

[larryh]

There is an auto update button when you select the my account tab at the top of the screen at the web site.  It is under MyFord Mobile Settings.  Mine is currently set to Off.

Edited August 2, 2013 at 12:01 AM by larryh

[murphy]

Mine is set to ON.

[larryh]

I let the car sit two days after charging on Friday morning.  The 12 V battery was down to 12.45 V on Sunday from 12.65 V when fully charged.   The HV battery was at 100% charge.  I plugged in the charger.  The charging ring turned on for about a minute and then turned off.  I observed that the charger drawing 160 watts of electricy and slowly ramping down to 60 watts.  It was apparently topping off the HV battery and charging the 12 V battery.  The voltage on the battery monitor was at 14.45 V.  After about two hours, charging stopped.  The 12 V battery is now at 12.85 V.  So apparently, even if the HV battery is fully charged, the car will charge up the 12 V battery when plugged in.  

 

However, I doubt that once charging stops and all the electronics in the car for charging turn off that they would ever turn back on again without some sort of trigger.  Plugging the car in (or turning on power to the charger with the car plugged in) and starting the car are the only triggers that I know of.  I don't know if GO times would trigger the charger to begin charging the 12 V battery if the charge was low. 

 

SYNC has the capability to install downloadable apps.  I wish someone would come up with some apps that we could install to better control charging of the car and monitor what is going on.  For instance, it would be nice to have an app that displays the temperature of the HV battery.

This past weekend I tried the same experiment again.  The first time I plugged the 120 V charger into the car before plugging the charger into the outlet.  Nothing happened.  The second time, I plugged the 120 V charger into the outlet and then plugged it into the car.  The charger topped off the HV battery as it did last week and then continued to charge the 12 V battery for another two hours.   Normally, when I plug the charger into the car before plugging it into the outlet, the charger initiates charging.  It seems, however, that when the battery is nearly 100% charged the order in which you plug things in matters.  I'm not sure why.  I would think the car could not tell the difference.  I was thinking that if you had a timer that turned the charger on and off periodically, it could be used to maintain the charge on both batteries if the car was not being used for an extended period of time.

Edited August 5, 2013 at 11:25 PM by larryh

[murphy]

Page 171 in the Owner's Manual.

 

"Always plug the cord into the AC outlet before connecting the charging coupler into the vehicle's charge port receptacle."

[larryh]

Plugging the 120 V charger into the car before plugging into the car is similar to power being restored after a power failure or using a timer.  The charger only draws 2.2 watts initially until it negotiates charging with the car.   One should not unplug the charger from the wall while the car is charging and drawing high current. 

 

These are the instructions from the C-Max Energi's quick reference guide which contradict the owners manual:

 

3. Plug the charging coupler into the vehicle’s charge port, making

sure the button clicks to latch into the port. Plug the three-prong

electrical plug into a standard, 110-volt outlet.

Edited August 6, 2013 at 12:34 AM by larryh